by nicolaou 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
@ Nicolau
Since you didn't present ANY proposal whatsoever addressing the problem of evil, are we to assume that you don't have any ideas on the topic at all? Why even start a thread if you can't test your ideas? What are you scared of? Just lay out a brief description of what you think is a better solution to the problem of evil than what Jesus offers. Let's take a look at it.
Liam
Of course, Prometheus...one of my all time faves. I think it's a great proposition on who our Creator may have been/is. But even in this wonderful film there was the stated possibility that the engineers had their own Creator. It always goes back to the being at the very start. But I agree it's a wonderful film and 'theory' and it does a decent job, as you stated, in attempting to explain some things.
I never said God doesn’t exist. What I said was;
Is there an All Knowing Benevolent, Omnipotent God? I'd argue that nature of life on Earth and the course of human history makes it impossible to accept, that a "perfect, benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient God, who is ruler of the universe. and originator of all life"……...Actually Exists.
Here, as nicolaou does, we are going by our own comprehension of what these things are or aren't. We assume these concepts (perfection, omnipotence, omniscience) are concepts we ACTUALLY understand when we are simply flesh and blood that eventually dies. Even the concept of benevolence and love are subjective. For example, in this world (despite all the 'bad' you listed), there is also plenty of 'good' that man has not interfered with or created himself.
Halcon; But even in this wonderful film there was the stated possibility that the engineers had their own Creator.
Ah-Yes, the age old question, “If God created Everything-----Who created God?”
Ridley made sure he made this possibility of a Creator not being immortal, evident in Prometheus. He wanted to make sure the audience grasped the idea that a Creation might outshine and outlive the Creator
Quote; Between the Creator Weyland and the Creation David the android.
“You seek your Creator, I am looking at mine.”
“I will serve you, Yet you are Human”
“You will Die, I will Not”
The Creator feels the pain that he, though being a Creator, will die. But his Creation will live long after he, the Creator has died
Ridley made sure he made this possibility of a Creator not being immortal, evident in Prometheus. He wanted to make sure the audience grasped the idea that a Creation might outshine and outlive the Creator.
This is an interesting take on the scene.
What I interpreted from the scene was mankind's pride being cut down. The last scene in Prometheus when the awakened engineer cannot fathom why Weiland would ask such questions of origin (before killing him) underlines this.
David in the scene above essentially humiliates Weiland for believing he had achieved something special, godlike, in manufacturing him (David). So man is reminded from both sides, Creator and creation, that he is very very small and insignificant relative to what exists before and after him.
I think we are able to understand the concepts of omni-traits, to coin a term. But we need to define what this means for any specific individual. The Bible only vaguely describes Yahweh's traits; the descriptions of god as all-knowing or all-powerful are later interpretations and come across as conveniences. And attributing such traits to Yahweh creates problems that I think cannot be resolved, which is when we turn to the incomprehensibility of god as a way to deal with them.
However... until we get to one of those difficult issues, we seem to have no problem at all comprehending god. We have a clear basis for judging his character and actions as long as they fit into an acceptable moral framework. When his actions fall into a gray area, we decide that he is inscrutable. That we cannot fathom his ways. That he exists on a higher moral and ethical plane, and thus our judgments do not apply.
If god is inscrutable, then we do him a disservice by trying to explain his actions. This leaves us in the uncomfortable position of realizing that god can do or be anything, because our notions of good/right/moral/etc do not apply to him. When combined with the actions he takes (according to the Bible), the picture we get is a concerning one. His quick temper and willingness to solve problems by killing should make the believer very nervous.
However... until we get to one of those difficult issues, we seem to have no problem at all comprehending god. We have a clear basis for judging his character and actions as long as they fit into an acceptable moral framework. When his actions fall into a gray area, we decide that he is inscrutable. That we cannot fathom his ways. That he exists on a higher moral and ethical plane, and thus our judgments do not apply.
Ah yes, the doubling down to protect the narrative, and to protect ourselves from the psychic pain of discovering that what we thought was correct………….Might not be correct after all!
Instead of confronting our failings, our wrong assumptions head-on, we instead practice different forms of evasion, try hard to rationalize the contradictions, and start the process of realigning the new facts with what we believe can fit our preconceive assumptions.
“Example; Jehovah possesses perfect, unlimited, and eternal goodwill, kindness, and love towards all creation. As the source of goodness and love itself, Jehovah cannot act in any way contrary to His fundamentally benevolent nature.”
But wait, Why does the bible say that Jehovah Killed 70,000 of his loyal, faithful, innocent worshipers just because a King took a census and pissed him off. And why did he force King David to choose one of the three ways he would wipe out thousands of innocent mothers, fathers, children, and infants? Isn’t that exactly what drug Cartels do to intimidate people into submission?
As Humans we have this tendency to claim confidence in what we believe. We may believe;
We will get a promotion at work.
The person that we are dating now is the one.
Our candidate will definitely win the election this November because everyone that is rational will be voting for him.
When none of these things come true, we start the process of using different forms of evasion, rationalization, and realignment, all in an attempt to make it all make sense. We do the same thing with our idea of God.
God allows evil because of free will.
God has allowed suffering because an issue of Universal Sovereignty was brought up in Eden.
We inherited Sin so God needed a Ransom Sacrifice before he acts.
God’s time table is not the same as ours.
And the list goes on.
It’s hard for humans to see reality as it is, (harsh, uncaring, Random) and accept it as truth.
So we create narratives to ease the Psychic Pain, the cognitive dissonance.
For some humans, to accept reality might mean, entering the Highway of Nihilism, a life with no meaning. A realization that in the end, we go back to what we were before we were born.
And once you’ve experience the sweet taste of Life, the love, the wonders, Nothingness just won’t cut it anymore.
So we do what humans do best……….we create stories of what God wants, what he hates, what kind of sex is wrong, what kind of food is bad to eat, what medical procedure is a sin, what kind of worship does he approve, what kind of worship is False.......and the list goes on.
And if you do what your Church, preacher, Governing Body, or your own assumptions tell you what God wants, then you will inherit Everlasting Life. And your mind will not be in constant Psychic Shock. You can simmer down the hot flames of cognitive dissonance and live in relative peace of mind, until you are no more.
Halcon:
And the closest I can come to it is the fact that I simply don't comprehend enough.
It’s pretty sad when someone’s best ‘defence’ for the ‘problem of evil’ is explicitly an appeal to ignorance.
Tonus - However... until we get to one of those difficult issues, we seem to have no problem at all comprehending god. We have a clear basis for judging his character and actions as long as they fit into an acceptable moral framework. When his actions fall into a gray area, we decide that he is inscrutable.
I think this is correct. I think we can relate to God up to a certain point...and then it becomes, try as we might, impossible. This happens both spiritually (ie. why doesn't God intervene on behalf of someone suffering?) and physically (how does anything exist?)
His quick temper and willingness to solve problems by killing should make the believer very nervous.
This is also very true. If God exists and we perceive how he can wield the power of life and death at will then we will proceed very carefully.
Jeffro -It’s pretty sad when someone’s best ‘defence’ for the ‘problem of evil’ is explicitly an appeal to ignorance.
Hehe..cheer up buddy, turn that frown upside down : )
nicalaou - Pathetic diversion. We were discussing Gods refusal or inability to come to the aid of people with specific illnesses or those in imminent danger. Try to focus.
I do understand why you are feeling this way, especially
coming out of the organization that taught nothing but lies about God and
Jesus. (Matt 24:24-25) But you're asking for a partial remedy. Christ is the complete remedy. Through him, God does have a plan that is coming to fruition. And He does see the good in all who try to fight against
a power that is greater than they are. His focus through the Bible has been to
help the abused, poor and needy, not the arrogant who rob them. And that is still His focus today. Matt
5:3-10
Job suffered severely,
and questioned why God would cause such harm to him, but the scriptures tell us
that it was Satan, who demanded to “sift” Job as “wheat”. (Luke 22:31; Matt 3:12; 13:30) We know this horrendous situation on the earth
is not by the hand of God, but by the hand of Satan. (Luke 4:5-7; 1 John 5:19) Christ conquered “the world”. He conquered Satan’s lust to kill and destroy
him by God raising him to life – eternally. We each have to conquer evil by turning to Christ,
who is truth. (Rev 12:7-11) When I read God’s
answers to Job, it is very clear that He is quite able to rescue us from the
horrors around us. He does not turn His back on what takes place on this earth. It is His plan on His timetable, to bring
about the end of lies, violence, pain and destruction on His terms…through His
Son, who is the perfect representation of God.
(Heb 1:3) The Wt presents false
prophesies one after another, giving their timetable of their perverted
Armageddon and their paradise. More than
likely they are now mocking God by muttering “Let Him make speed and hasten
His work, That we may see it; And let the counsel of the Holy One
of Israel draw near and come,
That we may know it.” These ones
are described as drawing “iniquity with cords of vanity,
And sin as if with a cart rope. Isa 5:18-19
And that mocking against God, is something I keep in mind when reading Job, chapters 38-41 This part is quite telling in chapter 40:
Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said:
2 “Shall the one who contends
with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it.”
3 Then Job answered the Lord and said:
4 “Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;
Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further.”
6 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
7 “Now prepare yourself like a
man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me:
8 “Would you indeed annul
My judgment?
Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?
9 Have you an arm like God?
Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
10 Then adorn yourself with majesty and
splendor,
And array yourself with glory and beauty.
11 Disperse the rage of your wrath;
Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him.
12 Look on everyone who is proud, and bring
him low;
Tread down the wicked in their place.
13 Hide them in the dust together,
Bind their faces in hidden darkness.
14 Then I will also confess to you
That your own right hand can save you.”
Romans 8:19-22; Psalm 110:1-2; 2 Cor 10:3-5; Eph 6:12; Cor 15:20-26; Isa 33:1
