God won't lift a finger to help you.

by nicolaou 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  TonusOH

  Konagirl: the scriptures tell us that it was Satan, who demanded to “sift” Job as “wheat”.

  According to the story, Satan asked to be allowed to visit those horrors on Job, his family, and his servants. God, who could easily (and reasonably) have told him "no", agreed to allow the Devil to massacre people and livestock, strike Job with an illness, have his wife advise him to 'curse god and die' and sent so-called friends to break him mentally. Job only expressed his belief that god would explain why this had all happened. It is a reasonable thing to think, if Jehovah was the kind of person Job assumed him to be.

  But, no... Jehovah excoriates Job for having the temerity to expect an explanation for the terrifying experiences he had been put through and the suffering that he was, even then, still enduring. Job was forced to apologize to god for this apparent display of hubris. Only then did god restore what had been brutally taken from Job (although his first ten children and countless servants remained dead). Job would now spend the rest of his days knowing that he had better be unquestioningly loyal to Jehovah, because who knows what fate might suddenly and unexpectedly befall him and his family?

  This is another example of the problem with the way we excuse god's behavior as always good. God can take care of you and give you an amazing life, and then suddenly rip it all away and put you through the most traumatic experience, for no particular reason. And if you dare to wonder why you were made to suffer in such a terrible manner, he might also dress you down and demand an apology. And also, he won't take responsibility for any of it. It's your fault. Or someone else's. Not his.
• 

  peacefulpete

  Life is not hopeless of meaningless because it is limited in scope. I cannot leap more than a few feet but that does not make my legs worthless. I cannot do advanced math in my head but that doesn't make my thoughts without value. Every day has an evening but that doesn't mean we don't enjoy and appreciate the sunlight.

  How strange the idea that some have, that if we cannot live forever there is no 'point' to living. We sound like whining children demanding more candy when we have handfuls in our pockets.

  Equally inane is the trope that if we were not the willful product of a deity we have no purpose. Years ago I learned I wasn't a planned child, ought I have concluded I had no value, and my life was purposeless?
• 

  liam

  Job suffered severely

  Wow, This brings back memories!

  This was the story that got my parents to stop pushing me to get baptized. They couldn’t explain to me Why?

  The story of Job shows unequivocally, not only how the person who wrote this story had some of the lowest moral principles, but the entire culture of the time couldn’t distinguish the absurdity of a Father allowing a relative, a friend, or a stranger, to inflict pain and death to his own children.

  Imagine if something like that happened in today’s modern world. Imagine if someone approaches a Father, and that someone asks the father of a son, and grandfather of many children, that if he allows him to inflict punishment on his son, and grandchildren, he can prove that his son only loves him because of what they can get out of him.

  Now imagine the Father says yes, and the stranger throws acid on the son, kills all his children, and strips him of his livelihood.

  Once the neighbors find out, without a doubt they will call the police and arrest the stranger and the Father, and throw them both in prison or give them the death penalty, for allowing such atrocity to be inflicted by this stranger to win a bet.

  How about this other scenario, A stranger or a relative, approaches a Father who is a powerful king with many children who rules a huge empire and tells him that he wants to prove that his children don’t love him. And he can prove it by killing some, and torturing others.

  How long do you think it will take before the King executes this man? Probably minutes.

  Last scenario. Someone approaches you and tells you that your children don’t love you, and I can prove it if you allow me to kill some of your children and torture others.

  What would you do?

  This story of Job shows how low the moral standards of people living back then were. They were literally sick in the mind. This is why it was no big deal hearing the story of Lot handing off his daughters to a crowd to be raped, or the man who handed out his concubine to a crowd of perverts to rape her to death and then butcher her into twelve pieces and send the pieces to the twelve tribes of Israel. This is in the last three chapters of Judges.

  This is one of the main reasons why the women of Gen Z hate the bible. The way women were treated in the OT is absurd and plain evil. And as more Generations are born every year, more people are rejecting the bible as the inspired word of God and concluding that it’s just a collections of stories written by ignorant men who were just reflecting the mores of their time.

  At the rate information is being spread throughout the earth via the internet, and more people have access to the bible, I’d say in 100 year the bible will become irrelevant world wide.

  All a person has to do is read the Bible a few times, and it becomes obvious that its a creation of ignorant men of the past.
• 

  Jeffro

  Halcon:

  Hehe..cheer up buddy, turn that frown upside down : )

  This is the kind of nonsense you can expect from ‘believers’ when they can’t comply with 1 Peter 3:15.
• 

  Halcon

  Jeffro -This is the kind of nonsense you can expect from ‘believers’ when they can’t comply with 1 Peter 3:15

  Tsk tsk jeffro... how about this one... Matthew 7:6...
• 

  Anony Mous

  The story of Job is interesting, because if you read it from the JW perspective, it is indeed horrendous.

  However, that translation (many English translations) deal rather poorly with the subject matter and the exegesis of the JW is completely different than what most scholars will say.

  First of all, Job is shown to be a pious man, who by sheer luck hasn’t had to deal with the hardships of life, when bad things happen to him, he calls God to a tribunal of sorts. Off course JW portray this as Job being the bad person, but in Jewish tradition, it is the opposite, it is normal for this sort of reaction and the reaction of his friends are also what basically someone (the friends) with no experience of hardship would say.

  The rest of the book is basically God explaining that there are 2 aspects to nature, the monsters he created and the beautiful things go to the duality of nature. The leviathan, behemoth, unicorns etc are true monsters in the historical context, not what JW’s declare it to be some kind of dinosaur or wild beast, no the original text in the context of the culture they are true mythological monsters that represent chaos and evil and God created both. In the end, Job learns that these things aren’t his nor God’s fault, they happen but if you hang on and get through, good things may/will happen again to you. God doesn’t get “angry” in the JW translation but rather seems to not understand that Job can be so naive, so he returns and provides wisdom that nothing in the end can be blamed for the random things that happen in your life.

  This goes to the mythology of Satan and God in Christianity vs Judaism and earlier religions, historically speaking, they are both aspects of nature up to about the Renaissance. Christianity (at least modern forms) try to make a separation between good and evil whereas Judaism and earlier religions make them more part of one needs the other.

  I think bringing the JW view of morality to modern arguments is wrong, because the exegesis of scripture by JWs is what fits them (and not unusual for 1800s pop religions), rather than the Jewish or Catholic view of what fits historical scripture and culture.

  In those context, the question of good and evil goes away, God has instituted nature as it is and we are the ones with the ultimate responsibility for our destiny, are we going to lean into our base desires or trying to strive to something better, either way is going to be problematic, the holy things are only there as a distillation of the best we can be.
• 

  Konagirl

  TonusOH - “This is another example of the problem with the way we excuse god's behavior as always good.”

  Gen 3:15 is when this animosity, this war against good and evil, the righteous and the unrighteous began. 2 Cor 10:3-6

  Job 19:23-25. Job's words are with us today for the purpose of showing us that the accuser, the devil, is after any and all who are dedicated solely to God and Christ. Can you see that Job’s example is reflected in Christ’s example for us? God is the presiding judge of His court. We aren’t. But the accuser, the devil would like to be. If we follow Jesus Christ, we also suffer at the hands of the accuser. That is why he demands to “sift” us, hoping to take us down, instead of being found “wheat”, just like he wanted to see Job go down as unfaithful. Job 2:3-6

  Jesus Christ: “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.” Matt 19:29

  Didn’t Job lose everything for God’s name’s sake? Yet, at the end of the test put upon him by Satan, it was restored “a hundredfold”.

  “But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.” Phil 3:7-11

  “Beloved, do not think it strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened to you; 13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ’s sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy. 14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. [f]On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a [g]busybody in other people’s matters. 16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this [h]matter.” 1 Pet 4:12-16

  Did not Job suffer as a faithful servant of God? So did Christ to the point of death. And his apostles suffered severely also, and all will who obey his word. 1 Cor 10:11-13

  That faithfulness was not meant to end in the first century.

  Again…”The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you - they are full of the Spirit and life". John 6:63
• 

  TonusOH

  Konagirl: God is the presiding judge of His court. We aren’t. But the accuser, the devil would like to be.

  God is not only the judge, he is also the jury and the executioner. What the devil wants is irrelevant, since God is the only one who can take final action against anyone and everyone else. We see this in the book of Job-- the devil admits that he is unable to lay a finger on Job, because God has protected him.

  More to the point, God does not have to allow any of this. Since he knew that Job was a genuinely good person, he should have dismissed the devil's request. Since God is fully capable of forgiving us at any time, his demand for blood sacrifices is unnecessary. One must wonder what it says about this god, that he allows suffering and even demands it as part of the process of forgiveness.

  And we must also note that the story of Job opens with God bringing up the subject of this one man and his pious devotion. It seems to me that Satan could have ended the conversation by pointing out that, in a world full of humans, Yahweh had managed to find only a single one that earned his approval. What is Job's reward for being unique amongst humanity for his loyalty and goodness? Being put through a series of truly horrible experiences, including the loss of his children.

  Getting rewarded afterwards still doesn't negate his realization that his life could be upended at any moment, no matter how devoted he was to serving god. This is the nature of Jehovah, a being whose nature is unchanging. This is god, forever.
  
  
• 

  TonusOH

  Anony Mous: because if you read it from the JW perspective, it is indeed horrendous.

  I agree. They treat it as a literal story, and it really doesn't work as a literal story. I also think it doesn't work if we make certain assumptions that are based in a modern Christian understanding, such as the Devil being evil or the personification of evil. Or Yahweh being infallible, pure, or perfect.

  If we read the story as a fable or moral lesson, and view the Devil as a counselor instead of a force of evil, it makes a lot more sense. In this version, God isn't necessarily boasting to Satan about Job; he is asking what he thinks of his (God's) decision to protect him. When the Devil points out that this skews the situation, Yahweh is agreeable to having Job put to the test. They are not in opposition as much as they are working together.

  In the context of a fable, the many deaths and the loss of livestock is not as jarring. It's just 'movie violence.' The reaction of God to Job's expectation of an explanation also makes more sense. Sometimes, bad things happen to good people, and there's no rhyme or reason to it. Expecting a chaotic world to make sense is potentially counterproductive. God is as much an agent of the universe as he is its designer.

  When we define god in the Christian sense --all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, etc-- the story takes on a much more sinister tone. A being in such total and complete control shouldn't be acting as if anything is out of his hands. Which means that everything that happens --including everything that goes wrong-- is a deliberate decision on his part.
• 

  Jeffro

  Halcon:

  Tsk tsk jeffro... how about this one... Matthew 7:6.

  How very predictable. But in addition to failing your Christian obligation at 1 Peter 3:15, you’ve also demonstrated that the Bible is used by ‘believers’ as a tedious ‘choose-your-own-adventure’ of contradictory cherry picking. Well done. 🤦‍♂️