TROLL!
God won't lift a finger to help you.
by nicolaou 75 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Halcon
Tonus -If we lack an eternal future, then I agree. But if this life is a microscopically tiny portion of my overall existence, then its importance is equally minor.
Perhaps if we were God this statement would be true. However, as human beings our present is always most urgent and most literally relevant. We simply don't have God's capacity to weigh our present, however great or not, against our unknowable future.
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TonusOH
The thing is, before long my present would be an eternal existence. And we are capable of assessing and planning for our future. I would say that a fair amount of the stress we deal with is when we are worried about the future, both near and long term. If we are incapable of properly assessing our long-term outlook, that is a pretty glaring design flaw on God's part. It would seem to me that he expects a lot of us to fail, which is in direct contrast with his desire for all of us to be saved.
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Halcon
Tonus -If we are incapable of properly assessing our long-term outlook, that is a pretty glaring design flaw on God's part.
Actually, all signs point to the great possibility that God does NOT want us to have a clear comprehension of our future beyond the next few weeks. He is clearly intentional in hiding the details of our future from us.
It would seem to me that he expects a lot of us to fail, which is in direct contrast with his desire for all of us to be saved.
I would mostly say yes, indeed he does expect a lot of us to fail (the wide vs the narrow gate). But what actually happens does not negate what would be his desire.
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TonusOH
Halcon: He is clearly intentional in hiding the details of our future from us.
Halcon: indeed he does expect a lot of us to fail
These are the actions of someone who should not engender our trust.
Halcon: But what actually happens does not negate what would be his desire.
He has the power to achieve what he desires. If he does not achieve something, then he did not desire it. If he is actively working against his own desires, then he is not trustworthy. One has to wonder about the nature of a person who behaves in such a manner. When this person is also the unstoppable force behind the universe and the only person who can determine our eternal future, the notion that he might exist should terrify us.
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Halcon
Tonus -These are the actions of someone who should not engender our trust.
Because you expect a different action from the Creator. And you base your expectation on your everyday human to human relationships.
One has to wonder about the nature of a person who behaves in such a manner. When this person is also the unstoppable force behind the universe and the only person who can determine our eternal future, the notion that he might exist should terrify us.
Here again, you are assuming you have read the mind and heart of God.
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TonusOH
Halcon: Because you expect a different action from the Creator. And you base your expectation on your everyday human to human relationships.
I base my expectation on his past behavior, as described in the book he inspired men to write.
I cannot base my expectation on human standards of morality or behavior, because God transcends those. It strikes me as inappropriate to even call him good or bad, moral or immoral, just or unjust. He exists on a completely different moral plane, and those terms do not apply. They are, as you note, human standards.
Thus, I cannot base my expectations on what is good or moral or fair. Those do not apply to God. I can only base them on what he has done in the past, as that would more accurately reflect his nature. The Biblical god is prone to anger and rash decisions, often carried out in a violent and brutal manner. Even in the NT, where we get a more humane version of God, he speaks of sifting people and making many of them suffer. He speaks of the difficulty of attaining salvation. He may be kinder and gentler, but only during his Earthly sojourn.
I don't have to read his mind and heart in order to understand what to expect. His actions seem sufficient. And he is, after all, unchanging. To expect him to act against the nature that he has displayed all this time strikes me as futile.
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Halcon
Tonus -I cannot base my expectation on human standards of morality or behavior, because God transcends those. It strikes me as inappropriate to even call him good or bad, moral or immoral, just or unjust. He exists on a completely different moral plane, and those terms do not apply. They are, as you note, human standards.
If you truly believe and understand this, then you would refrain from categorizing what God does or doesn't do as 'good' or 'bad' yourself. In the absence of your own limited human opinion, you would simply let God determine it.
I don't have to read his mind and heart in order to understand what to expect. His actions seem sufficient. And he is, after all, unchanging. To expect him to act against the nature that he has displayed all this time strikes me as futile.
You assume you understand what is the eternal future as God knows it. And even if you did, to categorize it (as you indicated) based on our understanding of a human life of 80 years in the present would be futile.
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TonusOH
Halcon: If you truly believe and understand this, then you would refrain from categorizing what God does or doesn't do as 'good' or 'bad' yourself.
I don't believe it, I am basing my comments on the view of a Christian who subscribes to the theory of divine command, where good and bad are based entirely on what God decides they are. I believe that it is possible to understand what makes an action moral or immoral; that there is a basis for determining this. That belief runs counter to the idea of divine command, so I am taking the divine command theory to its logical conclusion.
Halcon: You assume you understand what is the eternal future as God knows it.
I am basing my understanding on God's past actions and the notion that his nature does not change.
God is either predictable --with a past that gives us an understanding of what he is like-- or unpredictable. The latter runs into the issue that any action he takes is good, and thus he is capable of anything, regardless of how we might view that action. The former gives us an image of a person who expresses cruelty on a recurring basis.
I don't think the god-of-the-gaps argument works here. Either God is comprehensible to us, or he is not. Either way, we would be facing an uncertain and quite scary future if he was real.
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Sea Breeze
@ Nicolau
On page 2, I asked you to come up with a better solution to the problem of evil than what Jesus offers.
Since you didn't present ANY proposal whatsoever addressing the problem of evil, are we to assume that you don't have any ideas on the topic at all? Why even start a thread if you can't test your ideas? What are you scared of? Just lay out a brief description of what you think is a better solution to the problem of evil than what Jesus offers. Let's take a look at it.
I know atheists care about the problem of evil just like everyoine else does. Do YOU have a solution better than what Jesus offers? If not, why be so critical of Christians who trust Jesus' ideas?
In the absence of ideas on the problem of evil, atheists like yourself seem to exists for the sole purpose of pouncing on Christian's faith. Of course, you could change that if you actually have some positive ideas on the topic.