God won't lift a finger to help you. (page 5)

TonusOH

Halcon: What is heaven? What is the afterlife? We don't know what these things are...

But we should, shouldn't we? It's not just that heaven is the goal to aspire to, it's where we would spend the rest of eternity. If there is one thing we should want to know clearly and unambiguously, it's what heaven and the afterlife are.

Halcon: Job himself said "will we accept only the good from God?"

This runs into a similar (and much more important) issue. God wiped out almost all life on earth once, and this can only be a good thing, since it was done by God. In 1 Chronicles 13:9,10 we read about how God became incensed at Uzzah for a normal human reaction (reaching out to steady the Ark of the Covenant when the oxen transporting it lost their footing) and struck him dead on the spot. This was also a good action, because it was carried out by God.

Thus, the word "good" is meaningless in this context. God could decide to send all heavenly souls to hell for a period of a million years, just because he felt like it. And it would be good. There would literally be nothing wrong or bad about that action.

Halcon: what could we do about it? Absolutely nothing.

Right. Which means that we are the eternally powerless puppets of an unpredictable titan, who can --and will-- do with us as he pleases, and for whom the terms good/right/moral/fair are meaningless. We expect that this god will act only in a certain way, a way that we define as good or righteous. But this isn't how we have defined him. Job expected God to act in a certain way, too. He... miscalculated.

If that is the governing power of the universe and all existence, I'm not sure I see a difference between heaven and hell.

Halcon

Tonus -Thus, the word "good" is meaningless in this context. God could decide to send all heavenly souls to hell for a period of a million years, just because he felt like it. And it would be good. There would literally be nothing wrong or bad about that action.

When Job said "good" here, he was contrasting it with the "bad" he was experiencing. Meaning that as human beings we can still define something as good or bad, apart from how God defines it. This is possible because we are not the same person as God (aka two different perspectives).

If there is one thing we should want to know clearly and unambiguously, it's what heaven and the afterlife are.

"We should know" implies we deserve to know. And when this expectation is not met we become frustrated. The scriptures repeatedly show God declining special requests. And the reaction of those who were declined is varied.

I believe that the Bible places a much greater emphasis on what our minds and hearts should comprehend in the present than indeed the very ambiguous (literally and physically) afterlife will be like.

Balaamsass2

When I was a kid I delt with my JW cognitive dissonance by equating an absent God to my absent non-JW father who traveled internationally for months at a time. A distant entity who missed most stuff, but could call home...or transfer some cash...if he wanted.

As an old man, I have adopted an old JW belief "Religion is a snare and a racket".

liam

Balaamsass2

but could call home...or transfer some cash...if he wanted.

Yea but at least he would call, maybe once in a long while but at least he would let you know he existed

And at least he would send some cash, ......that's something.

But God doesn't call, and he doesn't answer prayers when you really need some help.

So either God doesn't exist anymore, perhaps he died a long time ago and wasn't immortal.

Or he doesn't give a F*** about human or animal life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYLml04B5iw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YnpQ1f8Qo8

titch

That video just goes to show how gross, despicable, and disgusting that eating and surviving is in the "animal world." That reptile, the "komodo dragon" doesn't take its captured prey back to its abode, its lair, cut it up, filet it, and then light a fire to roast it, and smear some barbecue sauce on it, to improve the flavor of the other animal. Nope, it just gulps it down whole, while it is still alive. I wonder if the komodo dragon even enjoys the taste of the animal, while it gulps it down? No, probably not. But, Oh well, that's all part of god's Master Plan for animals, right? Sure it is! -----Best Regards, Everyone. Titch.

liam

titch

Oh well, that's all part of god's Master Plan for animals, right?

Just imagine how F***** we are if there is such a God that Created the animal life that we see today. Life for these poor animals was created in such a way that a baby deer doesn’t even get an opportunity to live a Full life to enjoy the wonders that being alive can bring. The last thoughts of the baby deer can be seen in its eyes as it is being swallowed alive. What a horrific way to go for both animal or human.

I believe that any average honest, compassionate “Human” if he became omniscient, and omnipotent, and decided to create animal life on this planet, would make sure animals could find their nutrition in a way that didn't require some other animals to be torn apart to pieces or eaten alive like this baby deer.

The fact that this is a reality, shows that either, there is no God, and life on earth for both animals and humans, was random. And no major plan was in place by a Powerful Benevolent God. In fact most Scientists classify humans as an animal, but who developed a higher form of self-awareness.

Or there is a God and he is Malevolent!

TonusOH

Halcon: Meaning that as human beings we can still define something as good or bad, apart from how God defines it.

If our defintion contrasts with that of God, we are wrong, aren't we?

Halcon: "We should know" implies we deserve to know.

I said "we should want to know." It is natural to want to know what you are about to get into, especially if it's a decision that will last for an eternity. It is also natural to think well of someone who prepares us, but to be highly suspicious of someone who will not quite explain the most important and crucial facet of our lives.

Our sense of fairness should tell us that Job's expectation of an explanation was perfectly reasonable. We might decide that God doesn't owe him one, but it's the sort of thing we would expect from someone with a sense of personal responsibility and who believes in accountability. Jehovah clearly believes in accountability for everyone else, but exempts himself from this policy. Which is another reminder that his moral and ethical rules do not apply to him.

Being helpless to do anything about it isn't a good feeling either. To exist at the whim of an unpredictable being, with a set of equally-unpredictable moral rules, is not a fun way to spend eternity.

nicolaou

The story of Job is fascinating. It's the only account in the Bible where the devil kills anyone, in this case it's Job's ten children.

It's interesting because he couldn't actually touch them at all as God was protecting Job, his family and his possessions. They only became vulnerable when God accepted a bet with the devil and removed his protection.

God gave Satan a gun and Satan went a shootin'.

Imagine a family in the Witness Protection Scheme. If a police officer was persuaded by the family's aggressor to reveal the address of the safehouse what consequences would he face?

God on the other hand gets a free pass from unthinking, fundamentalists on this forum for behaving like an arsehole.

Duran

The officer could not undo for the family whatever would be done by the aggressor. Jehovah on the other hand compensated Job back all that Satan took away. Not only did he compensate him, but he doubled all that Job had.

DesirousOfChange

Not only did he compensate him, but he doubled all that Job had.

Surely Job felt much better that he had 20 new offspring. WTF about the 10 that died. No Big Deal! I have 20 more to feed!

God won't lift a finger to help you.

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