AGuest said:
Dearest Undf'd... may you have peace!
I believe you have misread what I posted: whether God can and does see and hear all things was not what I was directed to respond to. What I responded to was your assertion that He IS... everywhere. Which is not correct. True, to claim that God CAN'T and does not see everything is false: ALL things are naked and exposed to Him.
However, my Father is not here... in this wilderness. He is in His residing place... the "heavenly places"... which is only "here"... by means of His spirit being in those who are here. And it is only IN such ones by means of which He is here... in this realm. And then, it is with such ones that He is. He is not, however, everywhere. For He is not in the pit... nor is He in Tartarus... nor is He in darkness.
I posted Scriptures that prove that God is everywhere, and I posted Scriptures that prove God sees, knows, and hears everything as well. Ignore them if you wish.
Let me ask you a question, why can't God be everywhere? Are you saying God has limitations like humans do? True, God has certain limitations, such as He cannot lie, and His Divine Nature cannot die, and He cannot sin, but why should He have a limitation on where He can be at the same time?
AGuest said:
The "filling" that you are referring to is what is in the process of taking place, so that true, He WILL be all things to all people... and be IN all and fill all. But, if my Father Himself were here... He would have had no need to SEND His Son.
Can you explain that for me one more time on that statement?
That statement makes no sense. The Father sent His Son to DIE for us. So, of course, even if God the Father were already here, He still sent the Son as A HUMAN to DIE for us. The Father did not die for us, the Son did (the Son sacrificed His Human Nature, not His Divine Nature).
AGuest said:
And... if He and the Son were the same One... He would have had no need... to send Himself... or speak to Himself... nor beseech Himself... nor pray to Himself... nor subject Himself... to Himself. He would have no need to give all things that were His TO Himself... nor place Himself as Head over Himself.
You really do need to read the rest of my Trinity post, because I explained all that.
You are using the Jehovah's Witnesses false argument against the Trinity, which is actually an argument against Oneness Pentecostals, NOT an argument against the Trinity.
Trinitarians believe that The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are Three Distinct Separate Persons who are in Unity as ONE GOD, not Three Gods, not One Person, but Three Persons as One God.
Therefore, Trinitarians already believe that The Son was praying to The Father (a separate Person), and The Son was sent by The Father (a separate Person), and The Father is the Head over The Son (a separate Person).
AGuest said:
What you do not get the sense of is that He is the Father... and once the inheritance has been given COMPLETELY over to the Son... it is THEN that the SON... will be the Father's place! For the Son will have inherited. What, though, of the Father? Does it not usually occur that a Father dies before the Son gains the inheritance? And yet, God cannot die. So what then? God... will become all thinng to all... so that then it is the SON... who will reign. God, who is now OVER us... will be IN us... and then SON will then be "over" us.
I have no idea what Scriptures you got that from.
I think you have it a little turned around.
According to the Bible, Jesus is already ruling as King and God and Lord over us, and has already received ALL power and ALL authority (what else more can He receive?). The Bible teaches that at the end of time, Jesus will hand over His Kingdom to His Father, and will subject Himself to The Father, and then His Father will be all things in all. I believe that is talking about Jesus' Mediatorial Kingdom, because other Scriptures say that Jesus will rule as King over His Kingdom forever and ever. And, since there will be no need for Jesus to act as Mediator after all humans are perfect, I believe it is Jesus Christ's Mediatorial Kingdom He will hand over to The Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28: Then will be the end, when He hands over the Kingdom to God, even the Father, when He abolishes every ruler and every authority and power. For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For "He has subjected all things under His feet." But when He says that "all things have been subjected," it is evident that this is except for Him who subjected all things to Him. Now when all things are made subject to Him, then also the Son Himself will be subjected to Him who subjected all things to Him, in order that God may be all in all.
Also, The Father and The Son and The Spirit ALL live inside of Christians (therefore, this also proves God is Omnipresent):
John 14:23: Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and we will make Our home with him.
AGuest said:
Yet, while you agree with the reason WHY... you entirely miss the POINT: that He DID! Were He "everywhere"... He would have had no REASON to "go down to Earth" and "appear on the Plains of Mamre." He would have already been there. He was not.
Genesis 18:1: And Yahweh appeared to him in the plains of Mamre, and he sat at the tent door in the heat of the day.
God "coming down" was just a figure of speach, the exact same way that the Bible says God has a heart, and has ears, and has eyes, do you think that God has literal human eyes and ears? Those are all figures of speach so that humans can try to understand God. In the same way, God does not literally have to "come down". Although, the Bible does make it clear that God's main home is Heaven, but even Heaven does not contain God, which shows that God is everywhere.
Also, notice the following Verses:
Genesis 18:1: And Yahweh appeared to him in the plains of Mamre, and he sat at the tent door in the heat of the day.
Genesis 18:1 says that Yahweh had already appeared to Abraham, and He was with Abraham on Earth.
Genesis 18:20-21: And Yahweh said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous, I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which has come to Me. And if not, I will know.
Then, while Yahweh is already with Abraham on Earth, He says that He will "go down" and check out Sodom and Gomorrah.
AGuest said:
John 5:37 does not support your assertion, but rather they are in fact two (2) separate individuals, for as the SON said: "the Father Himself... WHO SENT ME... has TESTIFIED ABOUT ME." The "you" that my Lord was speaking of was those he was speaking TO: his disciples at the time. And, indeed, they had NOT heard the Father's voice or seen His form. But they DID: If not when my Lord came up from the Jordan, then when he was transfigured before them on the mountain. It was not my Lord speaking of himself, dear UnDf'd.
As I said above, Trinitarians (including myself) DO believe that The Father and The Son and The Spirit are separate Individuals. That is what I believe.
I agree, LATER, at the Transfiguration, some of the Apostles DID hear the Father's voice.
But the point I was making is that NO ONE before Jesus came to Earth, EVER saw or heard The Father, which the following Verse makes undeniably clear:
John 1:18: No one has seen God at any time. The Only Begotten Son, He who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
So, in the Old Testament, when someone saw or heard God, it was The Son that they saw or heard.
AGuest said:
And yet, who was SPEAKING? My Lord? No. And where was HE? On the earth. Who was speaking and where did the voice COME from? If they were/are one and the same, my Lord would have/could have glorified himself: his disciples and John would have had to take HIS word for who he was. And the voice would have come from WITHIN him... not ABOVE him.
I agree with you. The Father was speaking about The Son (separate Persons).
AGuest said:
A few things here, dear one: first, my Lord did not inspire the holy scriptures. My Father did, and gave them TO my Lord. I ask you to read the opening to the Revelation. Second, the Bible... is not "scripture". Scripture... is Moses, the Prophets, the Psalms and the Revelation. It is that which was written while the write was "in spirit". If you read the gospels, epistles, chronologies, etc., you will see that the writers were neither in spirit... nor told to write.
All of the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. Period. There is no debating, no discussing, no arguing on that point, as far as I am concerned, nothing you could say would make me believe that all of the Bible was not Inspired of God.
And, the Lord Jesus Christ certainly did Inspire the Scriptures, along with The Father and The Spirit:
Colossians 3:16: Let the Word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
2 Timothy 3:16: All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2 Peter 1:19-21: And we have the Prophetic Word made more sure, which you do well to heed, as a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no Prophecy of Scripture comes about from one's own interpretation, for Prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke, being brought along by the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Trinity Inspired the Scriptures.
AGuest said:
I do not see your point proven by what is quoted here. True, it speaks to the value we have with God; however, it does not say that God is everywhere.
You had claimed that God would not watch everything because some of it would be too trivial. So I posted a Scripture that says God even watches when sparrows die. If that is not too trivial for God to watch, then nothing is too trivial for God to watch.
If God is not constantly, always listening to and watching us, then how in the world does He hear all of our prayers? Angels cannot read minds or hearts, therefore, God Himself is always listening to and watching us.
AGuest said:
"Arche", dear one... is an OLD ENGLISH spelling. I speak of "ark"... as in "ark... of the Covenant." If you wish to call it the "arche... of the covenant"... please feel free to do so. Uh, UnDf'd... can you tell me the pronunciation of the word you spell as "a-r-c-h-e"? I refer you to the word that many are familiar with: archangel. Perhaps YOU say, "arch angel"... but in truth, dear one, it is pronounced "arkangel"... for it refers to the angel... of the ark (of the Covenant). The "womb" of a woman is were all life originates. Thus, if all things were created "in the... okay, arche"... then they created in the womb of the "woman"... God's free wife, Jerusalem Above... the "mother" of the Head and Body of Christ (Galatians 4:26). But you would have to understand how all of this correlates to Sarah and Hagar... which I am not sure you do, just yet. We can go into it, but not in this thread.
We are dealing with Greek words here, AGuest. It matters not how the ancient Greek word is pronounced, it matters what the Greek word MEANS. The Greek word "Arche" has absolutely nothing to do with the English word "Ark", except for they are pronounced similar. The Greek word used for "Ark" in the New Testament (when discussing Noah's Ark or the Ark of the Covenant) is a completely different word:
Thayer's Greek Bible Dictionary Definition of "Kibotos", the Greek word used for "Ark" in the New Testament: G2787
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kibo¯tos Thayer Definition: 1) a wooden chest or box
2) in the NT the ark of the covenant, in the temple at Jerusalem
3) of Noah’s vessel built in the form of an ark The Greek word "Kibotos" is used in the following Scriptures: Matthew 24:38: For just as they were in the days before the Flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos) Luke 17:27: They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos), and the Flood came and destroyed them all. Hebrews 9:4: having a golden altar, and the Ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos) of the Covenant having been overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were a golden jar having the manna, and the rod of Aaron which budded, and the Tablets of the Covenant; Hebrews 11:7: By faith Noah, having being warned By God concerning the things not yet seen, being reverent, prepared an ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos) for the salvation of his household, through which he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. 1 Peter 3:20: who formerly disobeyed, when the longsuffering of God was waiting in the days of Noah, when the ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos) was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; Revelation 11:19: Then the Temple of God was opened in Heaven, and the Ark (Greek word:
kibo¯tos) of the Covenant of the Lord appeared in His Temple. And there were lightnings and voices and thunders, and great hail. So, if John wanted to say that the Word was "in the Ark" (as you claim), John would have used the Greek word "Kibotos", NOT the Greek word "Arche" (which has nothing to do with the English word "Ark"). I could play word games too. I could claim that words that mean completely different things are actually the same word, as long as they sound the same, but that is crazy. Think about this: the English words "Whole" and "Hole" sound the exact same, but they mean two completely different things. AGuest said:
I am sorry, but you err. The Light... did not always exist... for God SAID: "Let there BE Light." Before that, the Light did not exist.
So, if the Light did not always exist, then please explain 1 John 1:5, because you have just claimed that God has not always existed, because God is Light. AGuest said:
Okay, dear UnDf'd... hear... and get the SENSE of it: the Son... ORIGINATED with the Father. If then the Father is light... then what COMES from Him... must also be light. Thus, He is the Father... "of celestial"... or SPIRITUAL... lights. The foremost of which... is my Lord. We, too, then, dear one, since we are to be BORN... or ORIGINATED... from God... by means of Christ... are to be LIGHTS. Which is why my Lord SAID: "YOU... are the LIGHT... of the world."
But, above you just claimed that "the Light" has not always existed, which means that God has not always existed, because 1 John 1:5 says that God is Light. Where in the Bible does it say Jesus had an "origin" or that Jesus "originated" at any point in time? Show me, and I will believe it. Micah 5:2: And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, you being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you He shall come forth to Me, to become Ruler in Israel,
He whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity. That means Jesus existed BEFORE TIME EXISTED. AGuest said:
It does if we were to buy your argument. Doesn't make sense, though, does it? Anymore than God talking to Himself or about Himself... praying to Himself... granting things to Himself... and finally... sacrificing Himself. Why in the world would that be necessary? But you, like many others, miss the entire point of Abraham and Isaac: Abraham... did not withhold HIS "only-begotten" son (only-begotten, because although Abraham had OTHER sons, Isaac was the ONLY one by his FREE WIFE... Sarah)... and so God... did not withhold HIS only-begotten son... only-begotten because it was His ONLY son by HIS free wife, Sarah/Jerusalem Above... versus His other son, by "Hagar", the earth... the one born... in the manner of the flesh.
I agree absolutely with those statements. I agree completely that the Oneness Pentecostal beliefs about The Father and The Son being the same Person make absolutely no sense. I believe that The Father and The Son are two separate Persons, because that's what the Bible teaches.
Nehemiah 9:6: You, even You, are Yahweh alone. You have made the Heavens, Heaven of the Heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things on it, the seas, and all in them, and You preserve them all. And the host of the Heavens worships You. Isaiah 44:24: So says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb, I am Yahweh who makes all things; who stretches out the Heavens alone; who spreads out the earth; who was with Me?
AGuest said:
These speak of the Father...
Well, then you have a problem, because if what you say is true, those Verses say that The Father created ALL things ALONE and NO ONE was with Him, not even the Son.
John 1:3: All things came to be through Him [the Word], and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.
AGuest said:
And this speaks of the Son, saying that all things came to be THROUGH him... and that withOUT him nothing came to be... which I absolutely agree with.
I agree, but that means the Son existed BEFORE any created thing was ever created, which means that the Son was never created, or the Bible is lying.
Ephesians 3:9: and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the mystery, which had been hidden from the ages in God, who created all things through Jesus Christ;
AGuest said:
Again, I thank you for supporting what I have told you by means of what you've quoted here. God... created... all things... THROUGH Christ. Christ... was the CONDUIT; however, GOD... was the maker and former...
How did God create ALL things through Jesus, if Jesus was Himself created by God? That would mean Ephesians 3:9 is lying, because God did NOT create ALL things through Jesus, because He would have had to have created Jesus ALONE, and not through Jesus. I had asked AGuest this question:
So, according to your beliefs God created Jesus through Jesus. Explain that please.
AGuest replied:
My Lord... was "only-begotten"... created out of LOVE. LOVE... for the "woman"... who is "barren"... "created" my Lord. And by means of HIM, "the Son of His Love," everything else was created. LOVE... has that ability. It creates... builds... brings into existence. HATE... destroys... annihilates... brings to nothing.
You did not answer my question. AGuest said:
Colossians 1:16-17: because by Him [Jesus] all things were created, those in the Heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.
You err in your mistransliteration of these verses. I am sorry, but you do.
Well, I'm not sure I trust your interpretation of Greek words, especially considering your interpretation of the Greek word "Arche". So, you more about Greek that the following Translations? Colossians 1:16: Analytical-Literal Translation: because by Him all [things] were created, the [ones] in the heavens and the [ones] on the earth, the visible [things] and the invisible [things], whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all such things have been created through Him and for Him 1889 Darby Bible: because by him were created all things, the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or principalities, or authorities: all things have been created by him and for him. English Majority Text Version: because by Him all things were created, those in the heavens and those on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through Him and for Him. International Standard Version: For by him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether they are kings, lords, rulers, or powers. All things have been created through him and for him. King James Version (1611): For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him World English Bible: For by him were all things created, in the heavens and on the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and for him. 1833 Webster Bible: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are upon earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him New International Version: For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. New American Standard Bible: For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. Amplified Bible: For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him. English Standard Version: For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. Contemporary English Version: Everything was created by him, everything in heaven and on earth, everything seen and unseen, including all forces and powers, and all rulers and authorities. All things were created by God's Son, and everything was made for him. New King James Version: For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 21st Century King James Version: For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him. Worldwide English New Testament: He made everything in the sky and on the earth. He made the things which can be seen and the things which cannot be seen. That means angels, kings, great powers, and rulers. They were all made by him and for him. Third Milennium Bible: For by Him were all things created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him. GOD'S WORD Translation: He created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible. Whether they are kings or lords, rulers or powers-- everything has been created through him and for him. Holman Christian Standard Bible: because by Him everything was created, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. New Century Version: Through his power all things were made -- things in heaven and on earth, things seen and unseen, all powers, authorities, lords, and rulers. All things were made through Christ and for Christ. AGuest said:
Hebrews 1:8-10: But to the Son He [The Father] says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above Your companions." And: "You, LORD [Yahweh], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the work of Your hands.
I think I'll just let the language here "stand"... along with the FACT that it says that the Father "SAYS"... TO the Son...
I agree 100%. But do YOU see that The Father says that the Son is Yahweh God who created all things in the beginning (Genesis 1:1)? AGuest said:
I refer to the Bible, from time to time, when folks like you have a hard time putting faith in what the Spirit says. Personally, I trust my Lord, the Spirit, the "lead [me] into all truth," for he IS the Truth. When I pray, I do so privately, to my Father. However, I speak with my Lord... and he with me... almost 24/7. I do not pray to him, although at times I appeal to him and ask him to appeal to the face of my Father and plead on my behalf. Whenever I do pray to the Father, it is through my Lord and in his name and I "enter" and speak. For I know that I cannot just enter into the Most Holy on my own... but MUST do so through my Lord. And the scepter is always held out to me, so that I have freeness of speech, no matter what my "issue" is. And I follow the "protocol" that my Lord gave me... because it shows reverence for my Father. I do not pray to the Holy Spirit; however, I always listen to him, my Lord... and OBEY... to the best of my ability.
Without the Scriptures (including The 4 Gospels) none of us would even know what Jesus did for us, unless God divinely revealed it Himself. The Holy Scriptures, ESPECIALLY the 4 Gospels are supernatural. I really like what Paul said in Galatians Chapter 1: Galatians 1:6-9: I marvel that you are turning so quickly from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; except there are certain people who trouble you and wish to pervert the Gospel of Christ. But
even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach a gospel to you other than what we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, and I say again just now, if anyone preaches a gospel to you other than what you received, let him be accursed. Paul said not to even believe an angel if he tells you something different than the Scriptures. The Disciples and Apostles prayed TO Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 12:8-10) and TO The Father (Ephesians 5:20) and TO The Holy Spirit (2 Thessalonians 3:5 and Revelation 1:4). Also, I am curious, do you believe that The Holy Spirit is a Third Person separate from The Father and The Son? If so, I believe the same. AGuest said:
John 8:58: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
Perhaps you... and others... confuse "I AM"... with "I have been." Perhaps. Perhaps, but according to the following Translations, Jesus used the present tense, not the past tense: John 8:58: King James Version (1611): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Analytical-Literal Translation: Jesus said to them, "Most positively, I say to you*, before Abraham came to be, _I_ am!" 1901 American Standard Version: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. 1889 Darby Bible: Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 1899 Douay-Rheims Bible: Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM. English Majority Text Version: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." New International Version: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" International Standard Version: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I tell you, before there was an Abraham, I am!" New American Standard Bible: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible: Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM! Modern King James Version: Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM! Revised Standard Version: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." World English Bible: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, before Abraham came into existence, I AM." 1833 Webster Bible: Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham was, I am. 1912 Weymouth New Testament: "In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am." 1898 Young's Literal Translation: Jesus said to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;' 1965 Bible in Basic English: Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am. Contemporary English Version: Jesus answered, "I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am." Good News Bible: "I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'." GOD'S WORD Translation: Jesus told them, "I can guarantee this truth: Before Abraham was ever born, I am." "The Message" Translation: "Believe me," said Jesus, "I am who I am long before Abraham was anything." Amplified Bible: Jesus replied, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM. English Standard Version: Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." New King James Version: Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." 21st Century King James Version: Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!" Third Millennium Bible: Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!" New Revised Standard Version: Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." New Century Version: Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I am!" Holman Christian Standard Bible: Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." Wesley's New Testament: "In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am." AGuest said:
John 20:28: And Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!"
But this states what Thomas felt at that time! If you knew what was in my heart for my Lord, you would know how I could say the same thing. And yet, it would not BE the same thing as what I would say of my Father.
Then it would be blasphemy, if Jesus is not God. The actual Greek words used by Thomas were "The Lord of me and The God of me!", and then Jesus commended Thomas for confessing that Jesus is God. AGuest said:
Romans 9:5: of whom are the fathers and from whom Christ came, according to the Flesh, He who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
God over all... except the One who subjected all things to HIM.
I agree that the Son is in subjection to The Father, but The Father and The Son are One God in Unity, not two gods -- that would be polytheism. AGuest said:
Philippians 2:5-7: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the Form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming to be in the likeness of men.
I would re-read this and try and get the sense of it, dear one. For again, it supports what I have been directed to share with you.
I'm not sure what you mean. That Verse says that Jesus existed in the Form of God and was equal to God. AGuest said:
Colossians 2:9: For in Him [Jesus] dwells all the Fullness of the Divine Nature of God Bodily;
Because he is the HEAD... of the TEMPLE... the BODY... in which God's spirit DWELLS.
Well, no I don't believe so. I'm pretty sure I would be blaspheming if I were to say that ALL of the FULLNESS of the Divine NATURE of God dwells inside of MY Body. AGuest said:
1 Timothy 3:16: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the Flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.
Have you not heard and did you not read... that he was the IMAGE of God... the exact REPRESENTATION of His being? Do you not hear and get the sense of it?
Yes, indeed, I agree with you, and that shows that Jesus is indeed God, but He is not the same Person as The Father. AGuest said:
Hebrews 1:8: But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
And who is the "He" that is speaking?
The Father speaking to The Son. The Father says that The Son is God, and The Father says that The Son is Yahweh, and The Father says that The Son created all things in the beginning. AGuest said:
I have to leave work now, dear UnDf'd... and there is no computer where I am staying the night. I will return... tomorrow or the next day and conclude.
Okay, thank you for your comments. I look forward to hearing your further comments. I think we agree on several points. I believe that The Father, The Son, and The Spirit are Three Separate Persons who are in Unity as One God.
