A Common Mistake

by DJ 67 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hi Kingpawn,

    GOD MAN
    He is worshipped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33).He worshiped the Father (John 17).
    He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
    He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
    He is prayed to (Acts 7:59).He prayed to the Father (John 17).
    He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15).He was tempted (Matt. 4:1).
    He knows all things (John 21:17).He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52).
    He gives eternal life (John 10:28).He died (Rom. 5:8).
    All the fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9).He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
    Jesus is both God and man. He humbled himself as a man in subjection to His Father. This is in no way is to assume that He is not = to God. See Philippians 2:6-11. Jesus knew all things as God. John 21:17 This distinction between his nature as a man and as God in the flesh is clear. There are many examples of this. Look at who raised Jesus from the dead??? See John 2:19-21. The temple was his body.Who raised it up? We see elsewhere in scripture that God did. They are one. Jesus took on flesh but He was God. Hope this helps. love, dj
  • Ravyn
    Ravyn

    http://www.staycatholic.com/jehovah's_witnesses.htm

    Jehovah's Witnesses
    by Sebastian R. Fama


    Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be "God's Visible Organization." They also claim to be "His prophet." They say that Jesus inspected their organization in 1919 and found a "faithful and discreet slave class, dispensing fine spiritual food to true believers" (Yearbook 1975, page 88). So what type of spiritual food have they been dispensing? In "The Finished Mystery" published in 1917, they claimed that in 1918 God would destroy the churches and church members by the millions, and Christendom would go down into oblivion that year. They also predicted that there would be worldwide anarchy in the fall of 1920. In 1920 they claimed that the Bible foretold the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and other faithful ones of old. It was written that they would arrive in 1925 (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 81). They have predicted that the world would end in 1914, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, and 1975. Obviously none of their predictions have come true. Are we to believe that this is "fine spiritual food?"

    They don't vote in elections, and they won't salute the flag or serve in the armed forces. They teach that it is wrong to celebrate birthdays, Christmas and Easter. They believe that Jesus and Michael the Archangel are one and the same.

    Ricarda Bradford was seriously injured in an automobile accident. She was in desperate need of a blood transfusion. Her father, a devout Jehovah's Witness, refused to allow it, as Witnesses believe that the Bible prohibits blood transfusions. As a result, Ricarda died on her sixth birthday. Many of their teachings, such as this one, are arrived at by taking Bible verses out of context. When they are shown Bible verses that contradict their theology, their responses generally imply that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says.

    Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that the doctrine of the Trinity is a false one. But even their version of the Bible disagrees. In Genesis 1:26 God says, "Let us make man in our image." In the next verse we read that "God proceeded to make man in His image." So God alone created man, and yet more than one person was involved. This is the doctrine of the Trinity. It is true that in some places the Scriptures speak of Jesus as being subordinate to the Father, but this is perfectly natural and necessary to the Christian view. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. In His human nature He is subject to the Father. In His divine nature He is equal to the Father.

    Jesus' divinity is illustrated in John 2:18-21, where we read, "Therefore, in answer, the Jews said to Him, 'What sign have you to show us, since you are doing these things?' In answer Jesus said to them, 'Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.' Therefore the Jews said, 'This temple was built in forty-six years, and you will raise it up in three days?' But He was talking about the temple of His body." Acts 5:30 tells us that "The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus." So the Bible tells us that Jesus raised His own dead body. It also tells us that the one who raised Him was God. Therefore Jesus is God.

    Isaiah 9:6 predicts the birth of Jesus. Note what it calls Him: "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us, and the princely rule will come to be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

    Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that the Holy Spirit is not a person but God's active force. He is likened to "electricity, a force that can be adapted to perform a great variety of operations." But this is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible not only tells us that the Holy Spirit is a person, but a divine one as well. In Acts 13:2 we read, "As they were ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, 'Of all persons set Barnabas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.'" And again, "The Holy Spirit aptly spoke through Isaiah the prophet" (Acts 28:25). If the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, how is it that it can speak and refer to itself in a personal way?

    The divinity of the Holy Spirit is revealed in Acts 5:3-4: "But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the Holy Spirit…You have played false not to men, but to God.'"

    Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the doctrine of the Trinity derives no support from any Christian writers for three centuries after the birth of Christ (Should You Believe in the Trinity, page 7). Among the early writers mentioned are Tertullian, Origen and Theophilus of Antioch. However, Tertullian wrote, "And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, the Son, and the Spirit" (Against Praxeas 2:1, 213 AD).

    Origen wrote, "For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside Himself, so that there was a time when He [the Son] did not exist…For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1, 220 AD).

    Finally, Theophilus of Antioch: "The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, His Word, and His Wisdom" (Ad Autolycus 2:15, 181 AD).

    Jehovah's Witness theology concerning hell is also problematic. They teach that the Biblical terms used to describe hell are merely symbolic; that after death the damned will no longer exist. The idea of eternal torment is flatly rejected. But the Scriptures teach otherwise. In Matthew 25:41 we read, "Then He will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on your way from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.'" Notice how the everlasting fire is a place that was prepared. If it were not an actual place, no preparation would be needed. Further evidence is found in Revelation 21:8: "But as for the cowards and those without faith, and those who are disgusting in their filth, and murderers and fornicators, and those practicing Spiritism and idolaters, and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This means the second death." There could only be a second death if those in question were still in existence after the first one.

    Hell-fire cannot be symbolic of non-existence, as it would defeat the purpose of symbolism. The purpose of symbolism is to teach by way of illustration. Whenever symbolic language is used, there is always a parallel principle involved. For instance, if I said that I had an ocean of water in my basement, would you think that it was flooded or bone dry? Most people would think that it was flooded. An ocean is a large body of water, so it would symbolize an excessive amount of water. It would never be used to describe an absence of water. Similarly, hell-fire would never be used to describe non-existence. There are no two concepts more radically opposed. Non-existence is a total absence of reality, while fiery torture is the most vivid form of reality. How could one symbolize the other?

    Consider what Jesus said about Judas in Matthew 26:24: "Woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him to have never been born." Why would it have been finer for him to have never been born? If he were never born he would be non-existent. If he died unrepentant and went to a symbolic hell he would be equally non-existent. If such were the case, Jesus' statement would be foolish. It would only make sense if Judas went to a hell of eternal punishment.

    Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. But the Bible disagrees. Luke 24:38-39 records the following: "So He [Jesus] said to them, 'A spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.'" In response, Witnesses tell us that Jesus materialized bodies as the angels had done in the past when appearing to humans. Once again we appeal to John 2:18-21 where Jesus says that He will raise His then present body.

    As we have seen, the Jehovah's Witnesses have a history of false claims and faulty theology. This hardly qualifies them to be "God's visible organization," let alone "His Prophet."

    Copyright © 2001 StayCatholic.com


    For Further Study

    Books - Answering Jehovah's Witnesses by Jason Everett and Jehovah's Witnesses : Answered Verse by Verse by David A. Reed (not a Catholic Publication but for the most part it is excellent).
    Audio Cassette - Answering Missionaries at your Door by Fr. Mitch Pacwa.
    Video Cassette - Witnesses of Jehovah


    Ravyn
  • DJ
    DJ

    Ravyn,

    Thanks for the post, it was great. It is truly one spirit who teaches us all things. I have come to these conclusions only thru reading the scriptures and praying for the guidance of the holy spirit for understanding them. It is not by coincidence that I (an xjw) could come to understand these things mentioned above (plus much more!). My eyes were so blinded as a jw and my heart was so hardened against what is true. It is as if I had been another person. There is no way that anyone who just reads the scriptures and prays that they would ever come to the conclusions and teachings of the watchtower!! It just shows that what is of man is not of the spirit of truth. I enjoyed reading that and thanks again bit I had to laugh at this: by David A. Reed (not a Catholic Publication but for the most part it is excellent).

    I have no idea how I managed to put that whole thing in a quote....lol...I just wanted to quote the highlighted part! I wrote the rest......as you know I am not Catholic, just regular Christian...lol Love, dj

  • Kingpawn
    Kingpawn

    Ravyn,

    Thanks for your post concerning my question. Does make it a bit clearer.

    You had wondered where people got the idea that "equal" meant "same." I guess it was one of those things I always assumed without thinking it over critically.

    DJ,

    So when Christ went from Divine to human, He voluntarily became a lesser being while He was on Earth? And after His resurrection regained His Divine nature?

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hi Kingpawn,

    No, I don't see that in the scriptures, do you? He was fully man and fully God. In Him the fullness of God dwelled bodily. Collosians.

    He raised himself from the the dead, remember the quote above about the temple of His body?

    He emptied himself and took the form of a servant.....but He was also in the form of God and He also did not expect us to grasp or seize that concept. See Philiipians 2:5-8.

    It seems that at times Jesus showed his humanity and at other times He showed his Godship. He was the son of man and the son of God. He never ceased being either, He was both!

    The heavens and earth were created by the Word. 2Peter 3:5-7 The word is Jesus. The Creator of the heavena and everything in them was not created.

    There are sooooo many more scriptures to show you what is true. You would be amazed. I am willing to supply you with all of them...lol....it would take me years but I will. I first strongly urge you to ask, seek with all of your heart and pray for the holy spirit to teach you. You will be fed like a babe and cradled until you are free. Jesus laid down His life for your sins, KP..just as he did for me. He will set you free. Read Matthew 11:25-30 and do as He asks. You may feel frightened to pray to Him at first because of all we were taught but just tell him that too, he already knows anyway. He will comfort you. Ask Him for His guidance into all truth. You have had enough error, he knows that too. You are more than welcome to pm me anytime for anything. It's time to be taught by the great teacher and master, not man. You will never go wrong or feel such joy. love to you, dj

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline

    Gumby,

    You are always a poster on the Christian topics threads, makes one wonder. Of you truly given up on Christianity, it should follow that you would no longer be interested in it. I am on this site to help others who have been thru the jw nonsense. So, like it or not we have something in common...a jw past. You are not going to be successful in trying to convince me that the trinity concept does not align perfectly with the bible teachings. I have spent many years on it. So, give it a rest and try to spend your time with something constructive. Dj

    DJ

    Your statement implies because someone “gives up” on something they can no longer discuss it nor have an opinion on it. Do we not come here regularly and speak our views on JWs while most of us are ex-jw? Therefore it IMO does not “follow” we will have no interest in something because we no longer believe/practice.

    Why can’t Gumby state what his/her opinions may be even if they differ from yours? It’s obvious his conclusions are far different from yours why can’t that be known?

    My question to you is because he has given up on Christianity in your opinion what is to become of Gumby or anyone with his same viewpoint? Will he die? Will he go to hell? What will the penalty be because he does not believe or was never convinced or the veracity of your claims, if there is a penalty? When I say penalty I mean in a Christian sense. I figure since you are trying to convince us of the trinity and Christianity there must be a penalty if one does not believe.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think gumby had a point . I mean what do we do with people like that, do we put him an iron mask simply because he thinks religion is a sham ? Sure let's pull his toungue out or cut his fingers off so he can't reply any more . I think religion is a sham and also the belief of of a trinity , OHHHHHHHH no!!!!!!!!!! look out my eyesssssssss are melting in their sockets . Jeeze the dubs would DA him just for visiting this site .

  • DJ
    DJ

    Kingpawn and Ravyn,

    I think that it is very important to note that in the Athanasian creed, where it says Catholic....that DOES Not refer to the Roman Catholic religion. The creed was written long before the Roman Catholic church broke from the Greek Orothodox Church. Roman Catholisism actually began in the year 1054 AD. Rome gave it's support to the popes while Orthodoxy did not. The term "catholic" in the creed merely meant "universal" and had nothing to do with Roman Catholosism. I recently only learned of this as well. love, dj

    Cassi,

    Your panties are in a twist! Chill. I am not God and do not even consider what will happen to Gumby. He has made his choices in his life, he knows the gospel and accepted it and was baptised as a born again Christian in a Baptist church. Now he bashes the beliefs that he once held. In my opinion it is a very difficult task to be a Christian, we are at war internally on a daily basis. As far as I know that is what Gumby is going thru as well. It is serious and an initense spiritual battle. I do not condemn him but I also am not going to reply happily to his rudeness and sarcasms. I have nothing against gumby and he knows that. He doesn't need you coming to his defense against me..lol. I am hopeful that he will stay strong and find the answers that he is seeking. I do not think even for a minute that Gumby will fall by the wayside spiritually, there is a deep longing and once he has "suffered" through it God will strengthen him again. he won't be snatched away forever...even though he may feel that way now. He will endure and he will be fine. Been there and done that. I have no ill will toward this man. I just asked him to be more respectful, that's all.

  • Cassiline
    Cassiline

    Cassi,

    Your panties are in a twist! Chill.

    Please go back and re-read my post please point out where I am anything less then "chilled".

    I am not God and do not even consider what will happen to Gumby.

    Then why do you care what he says or what his beliefs are?

    He has made his choices in his life,

    Yes, he has made his own choices.

    he knows the gospel and accepted it and was baptised as a born again Christian in a Baptist church. Now he bashes the beliefs that he once held.

    As do most of us with the JW faith. Do we not bash our once belief system and come here to do so? This is why I asked you why he can't make his beliefs known now. You stated that if someone no longer believes something then they should no longer be intrested in discussing it. I strongly disagree. This forum being here and the amount of posters who come to discuss exactly that, something they no longer believe attests to the fact that your statement is incorrect.

    In my opinion it is a very difficult task to be a Christian, we are at war internally on a daily basis. As far as I know that is what Gumby is going thru as well. It is serious and an initense spiritual battle. I do not condemn him but I also am not going to reply happily to his rudeness and sarcasms.

    Did Jesus not say to turn the other cheek? Gumby showed a passage from times long ago showing what happened to non believers. How is that scarsim and rudeness?

    I have nothing against gumby and he knows that. He doesn't need you coming to his defense against me..lol.

    I asked a question that I would like answered. I am asking if I do not subscribe to your belief systems what does your religion teach will happen to me? If you think I was defending Gumby rather then trying to seek answers you are mistaken. I am asking as I have said before I am continually learning and would like to know what your chosen religion teaches. I am not asking you to judge me, yet what does your God say will happen to me. And if I am to be damned by your religion, in essence by your sibscribing to that belief system you are damning those who do not believe as you do.

    am hopeful that he will stay strong and find the answers that he is seeking. I do not think even for a minute that Gumby will fall by the wayside spiritually,

    If one "falls by the wayside spiritually", what does this encompass? Death, destruction?

    there is a deep longing and once he has "suffered" through it God will strengthen him again. he won't be snatched away forever

    "Snached away", please tell me where he is headed if he is not "strengthened"?

  • DJ
    DJ

    Cass,

    Why are you hijacking here? I have no idea what will happen to you as I am not God.

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