How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat 164 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwswed12345 : You argue that the use of nomina sacra for both "God" and "the god of this world" implies that no special reverence or distinction was intended for these terms in the original manuscripts.

    On the contrary, my argument was that the use of nomina sacra for the word "god" does not justify capitalising it in English, unless we are consistent and capitalise all instances where nomina sacra occur. As you know, in the uncial Greek there is no distinction whether it refers to true or false gods, they are all capitalised.

    aqwsed : Grammatically, the lack of the article before theos [in John 1:1c] prevents a misunderstanding that the Word is numerically identical to the [God] (ton theon)...

    It does in Greek but not in English, because the English of John 1:1 does not reflect the Greek article. You think the English should include the article, as in "the Word was with the God", but the fact is it doesn't. This is why the REV (and Francis Moloney) translate it as "what God was the Word [also] was". That avoids the misunderstanding you refer to, but it is a paraphrase. It may be what the text means but it is not what it says.

    As we are discussing how JWs arrived at a clearer understanding, let's consider a number of ways the text could be translated which would reflect the Greek.

    (1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    (2) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

    (3) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the] God, and the Word was god.

    (4) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [the] God, and the Word was a god.

    (1) and (2) can easily convey to the English reader that there is no distinction between the Word and God. You may read it and say of course there is a distinction, because you know the underlying Greek. But most people do not, and a translation should convey the sense of the original language without requiring people to learn it in order to understand plain English.

    (3) and (4) introduce "henotheistic overtones", suggesting the existence of multiple gods, which (you suggest) is incompatible with the monotheism that undergirds John's Gospel.

    For the sake of discussion, let me distinguish monotheism, polytheism and henotheism (using theopedia).

    monotheism is "the belief that there is but one God. The term comes from the Greek monos "only", and theos "god". Monotheism opposes polytheism, the belief in more than one God, and atheism, the belief that there is no God.

    polytheism is "belief in, or worship of, multiple gods or divinities. The word comes from the Greek words poly+theoi, literally "many gods."

    henotheism is "the belief that many gods exist, yet the worship of only one of these gods is appropriate. A henotheist would admit that many gods may exist and are able to be worshipped. However the henotheist chooses to worship only one of these gods."

    Now I would like to consider the REV translation of John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and what God was the word was", with the footnote

    "The absence of the article (“the”) before “God” in the Greek makes the word “God” qualitative, which can be understood as “the Word had the character of God,” meaning that it was godly."

    So, John 1:1c answers the question "what was the word". The Word was godly. The Word was what God was. The Word was a god. Not the Word was God. That would (incorrectly) answer the question "who was the word".

    The objection that "the Word was a god" introduces "henotheistic overtones" ignores John's audience, who were either henotheists or polytheists. The Jews in John's day knew about other gods. How could they not. Caesar was a god. They just didn't worship them. They were henotheists. John's prologue would have made complete sense to them. It wouldn't occur to them to ask, how could theos be with ton theon, as English readers do when faced with the traditional translation.

    This translation ("the Word was a god") shows that JWs had a clearer understanding of how the divinity of the Word was understood by John's intended audience.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    The exaltation of Christ in Philippians 2:9-11 is not an indication that He was elevated from a lower status to a higher one in the divine hierarchy.

    I think in any reasonable reading of Philippians 2.9-11 Jesus is elevated to superior position. I know that’s problematic for Trinitarian dogma but Paul didn’t know anything about the Trinity and it shows.

    6 who, though he existed in the form of God,
    did not regard equality with God
    as something to be grasped,
    7 but emptied himself,
    taking the form of a slave,
    assuming human likeness.
    And being found in appearance as a human,
    8 he humbled himself
    and became obedient to the point of death—
    even death on a cross.

    9 Therefore God exalted him even more highly
    and gave him the name
    that is above every other name,
    10 so that at the name given to Jesus
    every knee should bend,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue should confess
    that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @Earnest

    Your argument that the use of nomina sacra (sacred abbreviations) does not justify capitalizing "God" in English translations unless we are consistent and capitalize all instances, even those referring to false gods, overlooks a crucial distinction in theological context and usage. While the uncial manuscripts do indeed capitalize all instances of the word "god" (ΘΕΟΣ) or "lord" (ΚΥΡΙΟΣ) due to the nature of their script, context and meaning determine how the word should be understood and translated in modern languages.

    The practice of using nomina sacra was not about creating ambiguity between true and false deities. It was a theological and scribal convention aimed at reverence for divine names, including terms like "God" (ΘΣ) and "Lord" (ΚΣ). The use of nomina sacra does not mean that these terms were treated equivalently when referring to the true God versus false deities. In fact, the early scribes demonstrated care when distinguishing between true and false gods, as seen in manuscripts where false gods are often spelled out in full (e.g., θεοὶ or κύριοι), while nomina sacra was reserved for references to the true God or Christ.

    In John 1:1, the context clearly refers to the divine nature of the Word (Logos). The statement "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" ("and the Word was God") affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. The capitalization of "God" in English reflects the qualitative nature of the Greek construction, where "theos" without the article is used to emphasize divine essence rather than to suggest a second, lesser god.

    In contrast, passages like 2 Corinthians 4:4 (“the god of this world”) or Acts 28:6 (“a god”) use the term "god" in a different context—referring to false gods or beings wrongly regarded as divine. These instances do not convey the same theological weight as when the term refers to the one true God or Jesus Christ in His divine nature. The use of nomina sacra does not eliminate this distinction.

    In the uncial Greek manuscripts, where no distinction is made between uppercase and lowercase letters, every word looks "capitalized" to modern eyes. However, translation into modern languages requires interpreting the text according to its context and meaning. This is where capitalization in English comes into play: to help readers understand the theological significance of the term. For example:

    • In John 1:1, "God" is capitalized because the context refers to the divine nature of Jesus as fully sharing in the essence of the Father.
    • In 2 Corinthians 4:4, "god" is lowercase because it refers to Satan, a false god or power, not equal to the one true God.

    The decision to capitalize "God" when referring to the Father or the Son in passages like John 1:1 or Philippians 2:6 is based on the divine nature attributed to them in those passages. In contrast, false gods or lower beings are rendered with lowercase "god" to distinguish them as inferior or false deities.

    If we were to follow your suggestion and capitalize all instances of "god" where nomina sacra occur in those later manuscripts, we would lose the critical theological distinction between the one true God and the false gods mentioned in Scripture. This would obscure the clear biblical teaching that there is one true God, and others are falsely called gods (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6).

    Thus the use of nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts reflects reverence for divine names, but it does not imply that every use of the term "god" should be capitalized in modern translations. The context of each passage determines whether the term refers to the one true God or a false god, and the capitalization in English reflects that theological distinction. In passages where Jesus' deity is affirmed, such as John 1:1, capitalization is appropriate to convey His divine nature. Conversely, when referring to false gods, lowercase is used to reflect their inferior status. Thus, context and theological meaning guide translation decisions, and the distinction between true and false gods remains intact in both the original manuscripts and modern translations.

    The suggestion that John 1:1, by using "a god" or "godly," somehow introduces henotheistic overtones misrepresents both John's theological intent and the audience's understanding. Henotheism implies the belief in many gods, with only one being worshipped. However, John's Gospel was written within a strict monotheistic Jewish context. The opening verses of John affirm that the "Word" (Logos) was not merely a lesser deity but was intrinsically divine—sharing in the very nature of God Himself. The phrase "the Word was God" is not a statement that leaves room for multiple gods, nor does it fit into a henotheistic framework. John explicitly establishes that the Logos has the same divine nature as God. Early Christian theologians, including the author of John, were extremely careful to preserve Jewish monotheism, while also affirming Christ's deity. There is no evidence that John’s audience—comprising Jews and early Christians—would have interpreted "the Word was God" as anything other than a monotheistic statement about the nature of Jesus.

    You emphasize that because "God" lacks the article in John 1:1c, it must be translated as "a god" or something implying a qualitative aspect ("godly"). However, this interpretation misunderstands Greek grammar. In this context, the absence of the article does not necessarily mean that "theos" should be indefinite. In Greek, when a noun like "theos" is placed before the verb, its article can be omitted to focus on the quality of the noun rather than introducing a new entity. This is known as the qualitative use of "theos" in John 1:1c. Greek scholars widely agree that the lack of an article here does not suggest "a god" in the sense of a lesser deity, but rather emphasizes the Word’s divine essence. The Logos is fully God, though distinct person from the Father.

    The translation "What God was, the Word was" (as found in the Revised English Bible) is sometimes offered as a more accurate rendering. While this might be a useful paraphrase to explain the relationship between the Father and the Word, it still affirms that the Word shares in the full divinity of God. This translation emphasizes that the Word possesses the full essence and attributes of God, which aligns with the traditional understanding that "the Word was God." Saying "what God was, the Word was" affirms that the Logos was fully divine, not a separate or lesser being. While this may clarify the qualitative aspect of theos, it does not support an indefinite reading like "a god."

    The claim that John's audience, particularly the Jews of the time, were henotheists is historically inaccurate. Judaism was strictly monotheistic, and any references to other gods were either polemical or metaphorical, often referring to false gods or idols worshipped by surrounding nations. John's Gospel was written to affirm Jesus' divine nature in the context of strict Jewish monotheism. The idea that the audience would have been comfortable with a statement suggesting multiple gods ("a god") contradicts the theological background of the Gospel. John was addressing both Jewish and Hellenistic audiences, and his purpose was to affirm the Word’s full divinity, not introduce henotheistic notions.

    While John makes a distinction between the Word and the Father (the Word was "with [the] God"), this distinction is about their persons, not their essence. The doctrine of the Trinity resolves this by teaching that the Father and the Son are distinct persons but share the same divine nature. The traditional translation ("the Word was God") does not confuse the Word with the Father. Rather, it affirms the unity of their essence while preserving the distinction of their persons. The Greek construction makes this clear by using "pros ton Theon" (with [the] God) to indicate distinction, and then stating "the Word was God" to affirm the Word’s deity. This affirms the core of Trinitarian theology: one God in three distinct persons.

    The claim that John 1:1 introduces henotheistic ideas or implies a separate deity for the Word is unfounded. The qualitative use of "theos" in John 1:1c affirms the Word's full divinity, not a lesser or separate deity. The traditional translation, "the Word was God," properly reflects this without confusing the persons of the Father and the Son.

    @slimboyfat

    While it might seem, at first glance, that Philippians 2:9-11 indicates an elevation of Jesus from a lower position to a higher one, this interpretation does not fully align with the deeper theological context of both the passage and the entirety of Christian doctrine. When Paul writes in Philippians 2:9 that "God exalted him to the highest place," this is not implying that Jesus was inferior in nature to the Father and then promoted to a higher status after His earthly ministry. The exaltation is a public declaration and a restoration of the glory Jesus already possessed before His incarnation. Consider Jesus' prayer in John 17:5:

    "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

    Here, Jesus clearly indicates that He shared the Father’s glory before the Incarnation and asks for its restoration. The exaltation in Philippians 2:9, then, refers to the acknowledgment of Christ’s divine authority and glory after His humble, obedient mission on earth—not a promotion to a higher status.

    Your point that Paul did not know about the Trinity is a common claim, but it does not hold up under closer examination of his writings. Paul clearly distinguished between the Father and the Son, but he also ascribed divine characteristics and titles to Jesus that would be blasphemous if Jesus were not God. Let’s take 1 Corinthians 8:6 as an example:

    “Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

    Here, Paul parallels Jesus Christ with God the Father, ascribing to Him roles in creation and sustenance of life—functions that belong exclusively to God. The term “Lord” (κύριος, kyrios) in this context reflects the same usage in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint), where it is used as a title for Yahweh. Paul, then, is equating Jesus with Yahweh, affirming His full divinity. The same affirmation is found in Romans 10:9-13, where Paul declares that confessing Jesus as Lord is a confession of His divine status.

    Philippians 2:6-8 describes Christ's kenosis, or self-emptying. It is critical to understand that this emptying was not a loss of His divine nature but a voluntary concealment of His divine glory. Jesus, in taking on human nature, did not cease to be God; rather, He chose not to exploit His divine status for His own advantage during His earthly life. The exaltation that follows in verses 9-11 is a vindication of His humility and obedience, as God the Father declares to all creation that Jesus is Lord. Hebrews 1:3 echoes this understanding:

    “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His being, sustaining all things by His powerful word.”

    Jesus did not lose this divine nature during His time on earth. His exaltation is not a promotion, but rather the revelation of the glory that was veiled during His earthly ministry.

    In Philippians 2:9-11, Paul says that God “gave him the name that is above every name” and that “every knee should bow... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” This exaltation points to Christ’s universal reign and authority as both God and man. However, it's important to note that the title of “Lord” is already inherent in Jesus due to His divine nature. What happens here is a public recognition and acknowledgment of His universal Lordship by all creation.

    The worship of Jesus described in these verses—“every knee should bow”—is drawn from Isaiah 45:23, where God declares that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to Him alone. For Paul to apply this text to Jesus without any qualification shows that he understood Jesus to share in the divine identity of Yahweh.

    One common misunderstanding is that because Jesus is exalted and subject to the Father, this somehow implies He is ontologically inferior. This is a confusion between functional subordination and ontological equality:

    • Functional subordination refers to Jesus’ voluntary submission to the Father’s will during His earthly ministry and in the economy of salvation (John 6:38, Luke 22:42). This does not imply a difference in nature but in role.
    • Ontological equality affirms that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are equal in their divine nature. Jesus’ voluntary submission does not mean He is a lesser being than the Father. This distinction is central to understanding the dynamics of the Trinity, where the Son eternally submits to the Father in His role, yet shares the same divine essence.

    In 1 Corinthians 15:28, where it says, "the Son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things under Him," this is describing the end of Christ’s mediatorial role in redemption. Once His work of redemption is complete, He delivers the Kingdom to the Father, not because He is inferior in essence, but because the work of the Son as mediator between God and humanity has been fulfilled.

    Finally, Paul’s view of Jesus in Philippians 2 fits squarely within the broader Pauline Christology, where Jesus is repeatedly described as preexistent and divine:

    • Colossians 1:15-20 presents Christ as the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, through whom all things were created.
    • 1 Corinthians 8:6 presents Christ as the agent of creation, a role attributed to God alone in Jewish monotheism.
    • Romans 9:5 explicitly calls Christ “God over all, forever praised.”

    Paul consistently views Jesus not as a mere subordinate being, but as the divine Son, fully participating in the divine identity and work.

    In conclusion, Philippians 2 does not depict Christ as being promoted from a lower status to a higher one in a hierarchical sense. Rather, it celebrates His voluntary humility, His role as the suffering servant, and His subsequent exaltation as the public acknowledgment of His divine authority and lordship. Jesus is not elevated because He was inferior; He is exalted because He humbled Himself for our sake, while remaining fully God. This passage, far from undermining the doctrine of the Trinity, reinforces the profound mystery of the Incarnation—God becoming man, yet never ceasing to be God.

  • scholar
    scholar

    aqwsed12345

    In John 1:1, the context clearly refers to the divine nature of the Word (Logos). The statement "καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" ("and the Word was God") affirms the deity of Jesus Christ. The capitalization of "God" in English reflects the qualitative nature of the Greek construction, where "theos" without the article is used to emphasize divine essence rather than to suggest a second, lesser god.

    ---

    Bunkum! The context clearly shows that the anarthrous theos in the last clause of John 1:1 is not only indefinite as the noun omits the definite article but it is also qualitative.Wisely, the NWT Committee. stated in the Appendix article on John 1:1 in 1950 the following: "Every honest person will have to admit that John's saying that the Word or Logos 'was divine' is not saying that he was the God with whom he was. It merely tells of a certain quality about the Word or Logos, but it does not identify him as one and the same as God".

    It would appear that you and your Roman Catholic theologians some being mystics have been influenced by Neo-Platonism originated with Plotinus which accounts for the theological mumbo-jumbo dressed up as biblical theology but is nothing but Mysticism rather than sound Biblical scholarship, presented in the 'celebrated' NWT -the most brilliant translation of the Bible ever made which puts modern scholars to shame.

    scholar JW

    University of Sydney


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    You are an enigma Slim...That was an interesting article that laid a very good case for the mythic origins of the Christ. I nearly burst out when Sanders slipped this line in:

    Among Palestinian Christians, as well as at Philippi, the historical counterparts of the mythic drama would have been the humble, obedient Jesus, on the one hand, and all those who failed to acknowledge him, on the other.

    The entire piece was about the 'amalgam' of mythemes and 'historicization' of mythic characters, then suddenly perhaps without thinking assumes an historical Jesus. The author has skimmed the surface of material from that age that suggests a mythic Christ story. Yet he doesn't perceive that every element in the 'biography' of Jesus including his name are drawn from OT story and prophecy as well.

    It might surprise you, but for this purpose it doesn't really matter if Paul wrote Colossians, in fact I am of the mind that all the Paulines are patchworks compositions. The issue is, the pervasive mythic nature of them, their complete lack of interest in the life of the Jesus of the Gospels and their influence in the formation of what we call Christianity.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The difference between Jesus and the mythical examples is that Jesus was a historical person. I don’t know what’s so enigmatic about pointing out the mainstream view. It’s a mainstream view that Jesus is distinct from and subordinate to God in Paul’s theology. The specific view of Jesus as an angel in Paul was not as common when Sanders wrote that article as it is now. It has been gaining ground in the work of scholars such as Charles Gieschen (on Gal 4.14), Susan Garrett (Jesus is “no ordinary angel” in the NT generally), Bart Ehrman, John Ashton and Charles Talbert (both support Martin Werner’s angel Christology), Paul Holloway and Emily Wasserman (both see Jesus as an angel in Phil 2).

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Peacefulpete’s assertion that the biography of Jesus is entirely mythic, and drawn from Old Testament stories and prophecies, is a position associated with the mythicist view, which argues that Jesus was not a historical figure but a constructed character based on previous myths. However, this view has been widely rejected by the majority of scholars, including secular historians, who affirm Jesus' historical existence.

    As slimboyfat correctly pointed out, the mainstream scholarly consensus maintains that Jesus was indeed a historical person. The evidence for Jesus’ existence is strong from multiple sources, including non-Christian references (e.g., Tacitus, Josephus). Bart Ehrman, who is often cited by mythicists for his critiques of Christian doctrine, has written against the mythicist position, affirming that "Jesus certainly existed" in his book Did Jesus Exist?. The existence of Jesus is not a matter of controversy among serious historians; the debate typically centers around the theological claims made about him, not his historicity.

    The claim that Jesus is portrayed “as an angel” (?) in Paul’s letters is a position held by some scholars, but it remains a minority view. Scholars like Bart Ehrman have indeed explored this possibility, yet the broader theological and scholarly community does not universally support this interpretation. Let's examine a few key points:

    • Galatians 4:14: The passage that suggests, "You received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus," is often used to support the angelic Christ theory. However, interpreting "angel" here in a strict sense (as a created being like Michael the Archangel) may not be accurate. In the biblical context, the term "angel" (Greek: angelos) can refer to any messenger of God, and is sometimes used more metaphorically or exaltedly to describe Jesus as the ultimate messenger or agent of God without implying that Jesus is a created angelic being.
    • Philippians 2:6-11: While some scholars have argued that this passage depicts Jesus in angelic terms, the overwhelming majority see it as an expression of Jesus’ pre-existent divinity and incarnation. The passage explicitly states that Jesus "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant." This text suggests a descent from divine status, not an identity as an angel. The kenosis (self-emptying) theology points to Jesus' pre-existence as God and his voluntary humility, which makes the angel theory less plausible here. I would still like to know where in Philippians 2 Christ's hymn anyone read about any kind "angel", or maybe the person who claims this was taking some kind of hallucinogen?
    • Hebrews 1:4-14: This passage decisively refutes the notion of Jesus being an angel. The author of Hebrews explicitly contrasts Jesus with angels, stating that Jesus is superior to them. It says, "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son; today I have become your Father'?" (Hebrews 1:5). The text is clear that Jesus' sonship and authority far surpass that of any angelic being.

    Peacefulpete claims that the Pauline letters show a "complete lack of interest" in the life of the Jesus of the Gospels. This is a common critique, but it overlooks a critical aspect of Paul's writings. Paul’s letters are not biographical; they are pastoral letters written to address specific theological issues in the early churches. His focus is on the significance of Jesus’ death, resurrection, and exaltation, which are the central elements of the Christian faith.

    Paul does refer to key events in Jesus' life, such as his birth (Galatians 4:4), crucifixion (1 Corinthians 2:2), and resurrection (1 Corinthians 15). He also emphasizes the historical reality of Jesus’ death and resurrection as foundational to the Christian message: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile" (1 Corinthians 15:17). So, while Paul's letters are not gospel narratives, they are deeply rooted in the historical events of Jesus' life, particularly his death and resurrection.

    The development of Christology in the early church was not the product of mythicization or later theological invention. The early Christians, particularly in Paul’s writings, were grappling with the implications of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The notion that Jesus was divine emerged organically from their experiences, the teachings of Jesus, and the Scriptures.

    In conclusion, while some scholars explore alternative theories like the angelic Christology, the majority of biblical scholarship—both historically and theologically—affirms that Jesus was a historical figure, distinct from angels, and that his divinity is clearly attested in the New Testament. The Suffering Servant of Isaiah and the pre-existent Logos of John’s prologue (John 1:1) both point to the divinity of Christ within a monotheistic framework that is consistent with the overall teaching of Scripture.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    However, this view has been widely rejected by the majority of scholars, including secular historians, who affirm Jesus' historical existence.

    Overturning widely held assumptions is always difficult. The operative question is why this assumption persists. There are many factors, cultural, religious and financial (fear of being perceived as an outlier, loss of credibility etc.) The general assumption is not based upon an informed assessment of facts. To be sure it is a complicated matter involving textual criticism and honest evaluation of positive evidence, more than most are willing to invest in a question that seems for many to be irrelevant.

    However, a significant number of scholars have expressed doubt or agnosticism regarding an historical Jesus.:List of Historians Who Take Mythicism Seriously • Richard Carrier Blogs

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    @scholar

    Your objection rests on the claim that the anarthrous "theos" (without a definite article) in John 1:1c is qualitative, and you emphasize that the New World Translation (NWT) reflects this understanding correctly by rendering it as "a god." You also argue that calling the Word "divine" is merely describing a quality of the Word rather than identifying Him as God.

    It is essential to understand that the absence of the article does not automatically mean "theos" should be translated indefinitely as "a god." In fact, many scholars agree that in John 1:1c, the anarthrous "theos" is best understood qualitatively, which highlights the nature of the Word rather than creating a distinction between a "God" and "a god."

    You mentioned that the NWT committee believed the translation "divine" was appropriate. However, even if we accept the qualitative understanding, translating it as "a god" implies a subordination that is not present in the Greek. Translating "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" as "the Word was God" conveys that the Word shares in the divine essence without suggesting polytheism or subordination.

    Contextually, John's prologue consistently refers to the Word's pre-existence, divine authority, and identity as the agent of creation (John 1:3). The use of "theos" in verse 1:1c cannot be interpreted as introducing a second, lesser deity because the entire passage stresses that the Word (Logos) was intimately involved in the creation, a role ascribed to God alone. Furthermore, John 1:18 emphasizes that no one has ever seen God except the only-begotten Son, who has revealed Him. It would make little sense to speak of a "lesser god" who fully reveals the one true God.

    You accuse Catholic theologians of being influenced by Neo-Platonism, suggesting that this influence is what drives their theological conclusions. However, this is a misrepresentation of Church doctrine. The affirmation of the Word's full divinity in John 1:1c is rooted in the biblical and historical understanding of the Christian faith, long predating Neo-Platonism. While some philosophical terms were later adopted to clarify the nature of the Trinity, the core belief that the Word is fully divine (not "a god") comes from the apostolic teaching itself.

    The NWT’s translation "the Word was a god" introduces theological confusion by implying that there are multiple divine beings or gods, which is contrary to the strict monotheism of both Old and New Testaments. Isaiah 43:10 clearly states that no god existed before YHWH, nor will there be one after Him. This statement is incompatible with the idea that the Word could be "a god" separate from YHWH.

    By rendering John 1:1c as "a god," the NWT conflicts with the broader context of Scripture, which consistently affirms the uniqueness of YHWH as God and the full divinity of Christ.

    You mention that the Church's teaching confuses the Word with the Father. This reflects a misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity, which maintains the distinction between the persons of the Father and the Son while affirming that both share in the same divine essence. The Word is fully God, but distinct from the Father as a person within the Godhead. This is precisely why John says that the Word was "with [the] God" (referring to the Father) and "was God" (referring to the Word’s divine nature).

    In conclusion, the qualitative understanding of "theos" in John 1:1c should be maintained, but translating it as "a god" introduces unnecessary theological confusion. The traditional rendering "the Word was God" is the most faithful to the Greek text and context, affirming the full divinity of the Logos without equating Him with the Father.

    @peacefulpete

    The idea that Jesus did not exist as a historical figure is a fringe theory, lacking solid support among professional historians and biblical scholars. While it is true that some scholars, such as Richard Carrier, Raphael Lataster, and Robert M. Price, advocate for "mythicism" (the belief that Jesus was entirely a mythical figure), their views remain outside the scholarly mainstream. It is important to recognize that the overwhelming consensus among historians and scholars is that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a historical figure. This is not simply an "assumption" as suggested but a conclusion based on rigorous analysis of early Christian, Jewish, and Roman sources.

    Renowned scholars like Bart Ehrman, an agnostic and a critical New Testament scholar, maintain that mythicism is an extreme and unsupported position. Ehrman, in his book Did Jesus Exist?, asserts that virtually all scholars, regardless of religious affiliation, accept the historical existence of Jesus. He writes: "The view that Jesus did not exist is demonstrably false, and professional scholars generally regard it as having been settled in serious scholarship long ago." This is a key point: mythicism is considered "settled" in mainstream scholarship because it lacks sufficient evidence and relies on speculative interpretations.

    Mythicism rests on several flawed premises. Some of the common criticisms against it include:

    • Arguments from silence: Mythicists often argue that because certain ancient writers did not mention Jesus, he must not have existed. However, as historians point out, the absence of a mention is not evidence of non-existence. Many other historical figures, especially non-elite individuals, are not mentioned in contemporary writings but are still accepted as real.
    • Selective use of evidence: Mythicists tend to dismiss or distort key sources that mention Jesus. For example, they often argue that the references to Jesus in the works of the Jewish historian Josephus are later Christian interpolations, but most scholars agree that, although parts of the text may have been altered, the core reference to Jesus is authentic.
    • Misunderstanding historical method: Many proponents of mythicism are not trained historians, and they apply flawed historical methodologies. According to Ehrman and others, mythicists typically lack the necessary expertise in ancient languages, textual criticism, and historical research methods required for making authoritative claims about Jesus' existence.

    The historical existence of Jesus is supported by a variety of sources, both Christian and non-Christian:

    • Paul's Letters: Paul's authentic letters, written within decades of Jesus' death, make multiple references to Jesus as a real person. Paul knew James, the brother of Jesus (Galatians 1:19), and refers to Jesus' crucifixion. Paul's writings are among the earliest evidence we have of Jesus' existence.
    • The Gospels: While the Gospels were written several decades after Jesus' death, they contain independent traditions that can be traced back to earlier oral traditions about Jesus.
    • Non-Christian Sources: Roman historians such as Tacitus and Pliny the Younger also mention Jesus (or "Christus"), adding further evidence to the historical existence of Jesus. Tacitus refers to Jesus' execution by Pontius Pilate, and Pliny discusses early Christians who worshipped Christ as a divine figure.

    The Christ Myth Theory has been extensively debunked by scholars across a variety of fields. Michael Grant, a prominent classical historian, stated: "Modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory," and added that "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus—or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary."

    Graeme Clarke, Professor of Ancient History, similarly said: "Frankly, I know of no ancient historian or biblical historian who would have a twinge of doubt about the existence of a Jesus Christ—the documentary evidence is simply overwhelming." These are not isolated opinions but reflect the broader academic consensus.

    While mythicists like Richard Carrier have gained some attention, their arguments remain outliers. Carrier's use of Bayesian probability to argue against Jesus' existence has been widely criticized by historians and scholars for applying a mathematical approach that is inappropriate for historical inquiry. Carrier's work, while peer-reviewed, has not shifted the academic consensus, which continues to affirm Jesus' historical existence.

    Carrier and others argue that because some elements of Jesus' story resemble mythological patterns, Jesus must also be mythical. However, historians point out that analogies to mythology do not negate the existence of historical individuals. Mythologizing historical figures after their deaths is common in many cultures, but this does not mean the individuals themselves never existed.

    In conclusion, the claim that Jesus did not exist is overwhelmingly rejected by mainstream scholars. The Christ Myth Theory is considered fringe, speculative, and largely unsupported by credible historical evidence. While a few scholars entertain the possibility of mythicism, the vast majority of experts affirm the historical existence of Jesus based on the available documentary evidence. The mythicist position fails to account for the strong textual, archaeological, and historical data that supports Jesus' existence.

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    aqwsed12345 : While the uncial manuscripts do indeed capitalize all instances of the word "god" (ΘΕΟΣ) or "lord" (ΚΥΡΙΟΣ) due to the nature of their script, context and meaning determine how the word should be understood and translated in modern languages.
    aqwsed12345 : Thus the use of nomina sacra in early Christian manuscripts reflects reverence for divine names, but it does not imply that every use of the term "god" should be capitalized in modern translations.

    I am pleased to see you agree on this. My point regarding nomina sacra was specifically that they do not imply every use of the term "god" should be capitalized in modern translations. And that applies to John 1:1 as much as any other scripture. Context and meaning should determine how the word is translated in modern languages.

    aqwsed12345 : The traditional translation ("the Word was God") does not confuse the Word with the [God] ... The Greek construction makes this clear...

    You have to be joking. Certainly the Greek construction makes the distinction clear, but we are talking about the English translation. You refuse to address the fact that most English readers do confuse the Word with the God. This is well known to all JWs who get to discuss the trinity from door to door. The first scripture the person will point to, and usually the only scripture, is John 1:1 and will say that proves that Jesus is God. In fact, you say the same thing (to peacefulpete) : "the New Testament's portrayal of the Logos (John 1:1) presents the Logos as not only preexistent but as God Himself". And then you don't think people confuse the Word with ton theon (God Himself).

    aqwsed12345 : The claim that John's audience, particularly the Jews of the time, were henotheists is historically inaccurate.

    Of course it is accurate. Archaeological finds in the form of oil lamps, coins and mosaics show there were other gods alongside the Jewish god, although most Jews did not worship them. Amazingly, there is a synagogue built in the first half of the third century, in Tiberias, which include the zodiac and sun god. The Dura-Europos synagogue which also dates to the third century includes a number of Greek gods as well as biblical scenes.

    To refer to a second god would not be strange to John's audience. In Margaret Barker's book The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God, she argues that prior to the rabbinic Judaism that emerged after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E., the Jewish concept of God was not as monolithic as is understood today. Many in first century Palestine retained a world view derived from the more ancient religion of Israel, in which there was a High God and several Sons of God.

    In Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho, Trypho first asks "show us that the spirit of prophecy admits another god besides the Maker of all things", and Justin answers "there is, and that there is said to be, another god and lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things (above whom there is no other god) wishes to announce to them.". Whatever you may argue about Justin, he is answering a question about another god.

    The first century audience of John's prologue would have had no problem with the concept that the Word was with God and also had his qualities, who was by nature a god. Indeed, this has always been a Jewish understanding since God said "let us make man in our image", although it was often attributed to an angel (or angels).

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