by slimboyfat 152 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Vanderhoven7, you say:
JWs have as much of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as they do with the angel Gabriel.Imagine not even being able to say "Thank you Jesus for dying for my sins.
Where did Paul ever say “thank you Jesus” as you suggest? Aren’t JWs here following the pattern Paul set of thanking God, or thanking God in the name of Jesus, and through Jesus? But not “thank you Jesus”.
'I give thanks to God always for you.' (I Cor. 1:4)
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all? (I Cor. 14:18)
Thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.' (I Cor. 15:57)
Thanks be to God who in our Lord Jesus Christ always leads us in triumph.’ (2 Cor 2:14)
Thanks be to God who puts the same earnest care for you into the heart of Titus.' (2 Cor. 8:16)
'Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift.' (2 Cor. 9:15)
'I thank my God in all my remembrance of you. (Phil. 1:3)
'We give thanks to God always for you all ... remembering before God our Father all your work? (I Thess 1:2-3)
'For what thanksgiving can we render to God for you?' (I Thess 3:9)
'We are bound to give thanks to God always for you.' (2 Thess 1:3)
'Always and in everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ to God the Father: (Eph. 5:20)
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you?' (Col. 1:3)
'To the only wise God be glory for evermore through Jesus Christ. Amen. (Rom. 16:27)
'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.' (Eph. 1:3)
@Slim,
Great array of scriptures.
Yes the pattern is to give thanks to God through Christ.
The point is that Jehovah's Witnesses are not permitted to have a personal relationship with Christ or even to express their gratitude or praise directly to him.
13¶And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Revelation 5:13
The truth is Jesus invites us into fellowship with Himself. He says,"Come unto me, all ye that are weak and heavy laden and I will give you rest.
Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son. Knowing both the Father and the Son means eternal life. Jn.17:3 And no one can know the Father unless the Son reveals Him to the sinner.
Jesus will say "Depart from me" to those He does not know and who do not know Him. One can have lots of facts about Jehovah and Jesus without ever coming to him or serving him.
Eternity depends on knowing the one who alone can reveal the Father to us.
And btw when we give thanks to Jesus, we glorify God. Luke 17:
Yes, JWs consider Jesus to be ‘the foremost angel’, to the extent that it matters.
Angels can’t be demonstrated to actually exist so as a fictionalised trope, there is a fair amount of latitude for ‘defining’ what can be classified as an angel.
As such, it is entirely trivial that JWs consider Jesus to be an angel independent of other denominations’ characterisations of what it means to be an angel.
Yes Jeffro it matters to people who think it matters, to state the obvious. You’re entitled to your opinion, as are others.
Vanderhoven7,
The point is that Jehovah's Witnesses are not permitted to have a personal relationship with Christ or even to express their gratitude or praise directly to him.
It’s that JWs follow Jesus’ own instruction to address prayers to God through him, and follow the pattern Paul set of directing thanks to God. If we are supposed to give prayers of thanks to Jesus then why didn’t Jesus tell us to do so, and why didn’t Paul do so?
Although prayers of thanks are not directed to Jesus in scripture, or in JW meetings, they do express their gratitude to Jesus in prayers to God and these expressions are often part of JW prayers, especially at the Memorial. In this sense JWs adhere very closely to the biblical pattern.
In the Lord's Prayer though, Jesus does not end with 'through Jesus Christ Amen', he doesn't even mention himself once in that prayer.
Slim
"JWs adhere very closely to the biblical pattern."
Not really.
Jesus taught his followers to address God directly as "Father". Yet eight million Jehovah’s Witnesses still tend to address God somewhat remotely as "Jehovah God". My take is that because Jehovah’s Witnesses do not know or relate to Jesus they do not understand or appreciate God as their Father.
Eight million JWs do not personally know Jesus Christ. The extent of their "relationship" with Jesus is tacking on his name at the end of their prayers. He is not their Saviour or even their Mediator.
The missing key to salvation is receiving Jesus personally. As many as receive him become children of God. Jn.1:12 And those who are saved by Jesus naturally come to Him as He instructed.
Eight million JWsdo not personally know Jesus Christ.
Eight billion people do not personally know Jesus Christ.
slimboyfat:
Yes Jeffro it matters to people who think it matters, to state the obvious. You’re entitled to your opinion, as are others.
🤦♂️
You’ve missed the point. JWs could say Jesus is a blurgit, where blurgits are a set of things that they define as including Jesus (even if a particular blurgit is unique in some way). It’s just circular reasoning that employs a term that you think should be defined differently. Your question about their belief that Jesus is an angel is a thinly veiled judgement of their opinion on the subject. So why get all high and mighty about my ‘opinion’?
Rattigan350:
It's that simple. Angels are messengers.
Don’t pull at that thread too much. 😂 If you start recognising that the original Hebrew term for ‘angel’ just means ‘messenger’, you (well, not you, because you’re deep in a cult mindset, but others) might realise that ‘messengers’ can ‘also’ just be people. 🙄 Attempting to claim that Jesus is an ‘angel’ just because he’s purportedly a ‘messenger’ leads to the conclusion that the postman is an angel.
