On Blaming God...

by AGuest 135 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    No spin, dear J6... and peace to you...

    What I have "heard" is this:

    Light... comes out of darkeness.

    Order... comes out of chaos.

    Life... comes out of death.

    Darkness... existed. Light... was created. Genesis 1:2, 3; John 1:9, 8:12

    Chaos... existed. Order... was created. Genesis 1:2

    Death... existed. Life... was created. Genesis 3:22; 1 Corinthians 15:36

    The problem is that "we"... have everthing BACKWARD... because we have been "taught" it by those who THINK they "see"... but do not. What "we" know... is the ANTI-type... of the REALITY.

    May YOU, dear J6... be granted eyes to see... and ears... to hear.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • teejay
    teejay
    WHERE does it say that God TOLD Cain OR Abel to BRING... ANYTHING as an offering? You have made an ASSUMPTION... the same as you believe you are in the "right" when chiding me for doing so.

    Good point. I stand corrected.

    The scriptures don't actually say that god told them to bring an offering. But for some reason they both did. Why they did is an insignificant point. The real crux of the discussion was that one offering was accepted and the other rejected. The question is: Why? We don't know. Since what's written doesn't elaborate, we can only assume. You assume in god's favor. Being a parent myself, I don't.

    If Joseph was following HUMAN laws... why did he say it would be a sin "against GOD"?

    Perhaps adultery was against Horus (?) or some other Egyptian deity. Who knows? It's a side issue as far as THIS discussion of Cain and Abel is concerned.

    You didn't answer a question that I'd really like for you to answer. Maybe "he" will speak to you for me:

    Why did god – as you say – PROTECT "murderous" Cain? (Perhaps Matthew sheds some light on that? ) Cain did murder his brother. Of that there is little doubt. The unwritten law of your god demanded justice, yes? Even your god said that Abel's blood cried out from the ground, yet Cain was not only allowed to live but was given a wife and a home.

    Please tell me: why did god break his own law (or allow his law to be broken with impunity) in the matter of Cain?

    Your superior "knowledge" of the NWT... leaves something to be desired, Teejay.

    I never said I knew it all. Too, I never said that my knowledge of the NWT was superior to anyone's. My only reason in mentioning that bit of my history was to remind you that yours isn't superior to anyone's, either. That's all. Your rebuke is accepted, however.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    The scriptures don't actually say that god told them to bring an offering. But for some reason they both did. Why they did is an insignificant point. The real crux of the discussion was that one offering was accepted and the other rejected. The question is: Why? We don't know. Since what's written doesn't elaborate, we can only assume. You assume in god's favor. Being a parent myself, I don't.

    You and I can only assume, teejay. Shelby of course doesn't need to because she hears the voice of God who fills in the blanks for her. Well, either that or she's completely mad.

  • teejay
    teejay
    You and I can only assume, teejay. Shelby of course doesn't need to because she hears the voice of God who fills in the blanks for her. Well, either that or she's completely mad.

    I know, FunkyD.

    Shelby and I have been down that "god talks to me" Road before.

    It was painfully discouraging to learn that something about me was so amiss that my creator didn't talk to me (and never has over a 45 year period) while he has almost daily conversations with others. Like Shelby. For a couple of seconds, the rejection was overwhelming. Then the latter possibility that you mentioned dawned on me.

  • JT
    JT
    Why would God answer a prayer for money which I have read one too many times in religious handouts why would he ignore the child who was
    beaten to within an inch of his life and sexually molested for years?

    Cass question above was answered by the comment below

    The sufferings endured in this life are not eternal

    when i first read the comment to the question i just laughed for that is the same TYPE OF GOOFY STUFF i used to tell Ugly Sisters in the Hall, when they would ask me

    "Why can't jah provide me with a man, i'm pioneering for 10yrs, at all the meetings, comment ,help the old folks , support all theocratic activites, dress modestly, etc"

    and i would say ""Sister Maybe Jehovah IS ANSWERING YOUR PRAYER AND THE ANSWER NO_ perhaps he sees that you need MORE REFINEMENT , ETC. PERHAPS ITS his will for you to marry in the new system SO focus on your ministry"

    instead of telling her- look here sister, brothers are fleshly -they like FINE LOOKING SISTERS and that is why "Sister Just Baptized" is getting married this summer after being a jw for 6 months- SHE IS FINE!!!!!!!!

    and the same with this poster - who was asked:

    Why would a loving god leave a helpless child to be raped------------- and the only GOOFY Sh!t this poster could come up with is to tell a child that the man's Penis will get soft and he will no longer be able to continue to rape you

    in other words the "Act" of rape is not Eternal- it only last for a few minutes or so it is not ETERNAL

    i would have much more respect for a believer is he just simly said "I don;t know why a loving god would do such a thing"

    instead of making up some BS answer.

    HOW DUMB

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Peace to you, my dear brother. Truly. And thank you for your... kind tone. Truly. I "hear" you.

    The scriptures don't actually say that god told them to bring an offering. But for some reason they both did. Why they did is an insignificant point.

    The "Law"... which was not written on STONE or PAPER... required it. That is why Noah did it... Abraham did it... Jacob did it... why Isaac was willing to BE it... all before it was written on stone at Sinai. Dear one, the the reason the Law was written on STONE... was not to make the LAW manifest... but to make SIN... manifest. The Law already existed; yet, the people were acting like they didn't know what Law WAS... so... God wrote it down for them.

    However, they were SUPPOSED to be LIKE Noah, Abraham, et al., having the Law written on their HEARTS... receiving it from generation to generation ORALLY.

    Deuteronomy 6:4, 5

    But while in Egypt... this "inculcation" had been left off, so that they came to love the laws of EGYPT more. Thus, when the people showed themselves to be lawLESS... God... wrote it down for them. Why? So that they would know what sin WAS... and not "sin" against God or one another... while forgiving those who DID "sin" against them.

    When something is "manifest" is becomes evident... apparent... TO THE SENSES. Thus, since the people conducted themselves as a people WITHOUT Law... God brought the Law... "into existence"... by means of making it obvious, clear, plain... SHOWN. Prior to that time, the Law was supposed to be in the HEART of the people. Just as it again is supposed to be today. It did not NEED to be written down on stone tablets, because it was SUPPOSED to be written... on HEARTS. But Israel heart(s)... were HARD. So, the Law was written... on something... hard.

    The real crux of the discussion was that one offering was accepted and the other rejected. The question is: Why? We don't know.

    Teejay, we DO know. All we have to DO... is look at the "written" law (that on stone tablets and as that which is to be on the hearts and stated by Christ) to know the RULES of offering:

    1. Under the Law Covenant, the Law on STONE, the one making the offering had to be CLEAN... on the OUTSIDE... and so, the priests had to WASH first, BEFORE making such offering. This involved washing in the molten sea of water adjacent to the altar.

    2. Under the NEW Covenant, the Law that existed BEFORE Abraham, the one making the offering had to be CLEAN... on the INSIDE... so they, too, had to "wash"... in the blood of the Lamb. This involved washing in the LIVING WATER... holy spirit... which is the "blood" of the Lamb.

    3. Under the Law Covenant, if the priest was unclean, he could actually die at the hand of God due to making such an offering, for the offering itself was rendered unclean. By means of profaning the Law Covenant, his blood... was on his own hands. For something unclean touching something clean, renders the clean thing unclean. And an unclean... unHOLY... sacrifice... is unacceptable to JAH... a "holy" God.

    4. Under the NEW Covenant, which existed BEFORE Abraham, one was granted a WARNING... so as to seek to BECOME clean... and if such one CHOSE not to listen, then such one's "blood" was on his OWN head... and thus, his death, his own responsibility. By means of his not LISTENING... he would have profaned the Covenant between him and God.

    However, BOTH Covenants called for something that could stop the death of the violator at ANY time: mercy.

    And it was by means of God's MERCY... that Cain was NOT killed. It was the SAME mercy that saved Moses, who killed an Egyptian... David, who killed Uzziah, after sleeping with his wife and getting her pregnant... Mannesseh, who was a mean tyrant... Nebuchanezzar, who worshipped idols and tried to get the young Hebrews to do so... Saul of Tarsus, who persecuted christians, even dragging them from their homes and having them stoned... and Peter, who denied the Christ THREE times.

    Indeed, whenEVER He was called upon to show it (and indeed, Cain asked for it, saying that the sentence given him was more than he could bear)... God... showed mercy. Why? Because MERCY... is superior... to both sacrifice... AND judgment. It is WEIGHTIER.

    Matthew 23:23; Matthew 9:13; Romans 9:15; James 2:13

    Since what's written doesn't elaborate, we can only assume.

    What's written DOES elaborate, Teejay. However, you:

    1. Have not been told/taught that it does, by earthling man; and, therefore,

    2. Have not read the Law RIGHT, but as they have told/taught you; and, therefore,

    3. Proceed with WRONG assumptions.

    You assume in god's favor. Being a parent myself, I don't.

    I assume... nothing. I asked. Which YOU could have done, too, and I am at a loss as to why you still have NOT... but wish to lean upon your OWN understanding. You want to "know the deep things of God," dear Teejay? Then WHY NOT ASK GOD? I know, I know... you and others will say that you have: "Dear God, why this and why that."

    But... you completely DISREGARD God... when He says that in order to hear HIM... it is His SON to whom you must listen... and you totally disrespect that Son... by saying that he doesn't even speak. He does. They do. You, however, and others... are just determined... to do it... YOUR way. And then you wonder WHY... it doesn't work.

    HEAR, dear Teejay... and get the SENSE of it: NO ONE comes to the Father... except THROUGH... the Son. ANYONE who tries to climb up some other place... is a THIEF... and a plunderer. CHRIST is the "Door"... the "narrow gate" through whom we must enter... and there is NO other "Way".

    The Door is OPEN, dear one... to YOU... and to ALL who are wishing, and thirsting... and HEARING. ASK for ears to hear. ASK for eyes to see. And then... PUT FAITH in what you hear and see! Otherwise... QUIT asking... because withOUT FAITH... it is impossible to please Him well... and such one should not supposed that he or she will receive ANYTHING.

    Hear... Teejay... and get the sense of it. IF... you are truly wanting to.

    I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Shelby of course doesn't need to because she hears the voice of God who fills in the blanks for her.

    You have spoken correctly, FD, with one exception: it is the voice of my Lord, the SON of God, that I hear. He is the TRUTH... the Spirit of whom... leads me... and if you wish, YOU... "into ALL truth."

    I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    It was painfully discouraging to learn that something about me was so amiss that my creator didn't talk to me (and never has over a 45 year period) while he has almost daily conversations with others. Like Shelby. For a couple of seconds, the rejection was overwhelming.

    "Hear" what you have "said" here, dear Teejay. For it sheds some light on why you are able to sympathize with Cain. Cain... could not, no, he WOULD not, hear... that the problem lay with HIM. And when told that the problem was HIS... rather than look at the man in the mirror to see if it was TRUE... he let his uncleaness grow... his hatred take over... and ultimately killed his brother.

    I know that you will be reluctant to see the truth in the comparison... that you are angry because you feel that I am "acceptable" to God... and you are not. But you have it all wrong: I... am YOUR... servant. I... am doing the WORK... of a servant. You, however, although perhaps a son in the household... would rather persecute the servant of the Household... than receive such servant as having been SENT... by the Master of the Household.

    Tell me, please: would you TRULY rather be the "servant", as I am? Truly? As my Lord asked... can YOU drink the "cup"? Or will YOU crumble... as soon as someone calls YOU "crazy"? For they surely will, just as my name is Shelby. They will call you mad, crazy, arrogant... they will accuse you of blasphemy, of demonism, of lying... and every other sort of wicked thing. IF you were to hear as I do... WOULD you go and WOULD you speak what you were given... NO MATTER WHAT?

    Your posts on this Board leave ME to wonder. I leave YOU... to think about it, too, and I bid you peace.

    YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • teejay
    teejay

    Again, dear Teejay... it is YOU who miss the point (peace to you!) - YOUR points are INVALID because:

    1. WHERE does it say that God TOLD Cain OR Abel to BRING... ANYTHING as an offering? You have made an ASSUMPTION... the same as you believe you are in the "right" when chiding me for doing so. – Shelby

    Good point. I stand corrected.

    The scriptures don't actually say that god told them to bring an offering. But for some reason they both did. Why they did is an insignificant point. The real crux of the discussion was that one offering was accepted and the other rejected. -- teejay

    The "Law"... which was not written on STONE or PAPER... required it. That is why Noah did it... Abraham did it... Jacob did it... why Isaac was willing to BE it... all before it was written on stone at Sinai. Dear one, the the reason the Law was written on STONE... was not to make the LAW manifest... but to make SIN... manifest. The Law already existed; yet, the people were acting like they didn't know what Law WAS... so... God wrote it down for them.

    However, they were SUPPOSED to be LIKE Noah, Abraham, et al., having the Law written on their HEARTS... receiving it from generation to generation ORALLY. -- Shelby

    As far as I'm concerned Shelby, you're beating a moot point into the ground. Did god tell or not tell Cain and Able to bring an offering? Did they read it somewhere on paper or was it on stone? Did they have a dream or did a voice simultaneously draw them into an open field where they were to make their offerings? Other than you, who cares why they made their offerings!?

    THE POINT IS THAT THEY BOTH BROUGHT AN OFFERING – ONE BEING REJECTED, THE OTHER ACCEPTED.

    In THIS discussion, I don’t give a rat about Noah, Abraham, Joseph or anybody else who lived 100s and 1000s of years later. Why should you?

    The fact is god showed callous, unloving, judgmental favoritism toward his two sons, neither of whom had the fortune of learning from past generations what the unseen deity required. Pleasing him was a matter of trial and error. Much like, it would seem, god's parenting skill.

    p.s. I noticed that for the second time you didn't answer my question. I will ask it again:

    Why did god – as you say – PROTECT "murderous" Cain? (Perhaps Matthew sheds some light on that? ) Cain did murder his brother. Of that there is little doubt. The unwritten law of your god demanded justice, yes? Even your god said that Abel's blood cried out from the ground, yet Cain was not only allowed to live but was given a wife and a home.

    Please tell me: why did god break his own law (or allow his law to be broken with impunity) in the matter of Cain?

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    for being "verbose." Peace to you. You state:

    As far as I'm concerned Shelby, you're beating a moot point into the ground. Did god tell or not tell Cain and Able to bring an offering? Did they read it somewhere on paper or was it on stone? Did they have a dream or did a voice simultaneously draw them into an open field where they were to make their offerings? Other than you, who cares why they made their offerings!?

    I beg your pardon. For ME, in order to answer the question of WHY one offering was acceptable and one was rejected, MY thinking is that one would have to know a little bit more about offerings in general… and the “protocol” for doing so. Apparently, you did not have such need. My apologies.

    THE POINT IS THAT THEY BOTH BROUGHT AN OFFERING – ONE BEING REJECTED, THE OTHER ACCEPTED. In THIS discussion, I don’t give a rat about Noah, Abraham, Joseph or anybody else who lived 100s and 1000s of years later. Why should you?

    Because one... people make all KINDS of assumptions... because of a lack of INFORMATION. So, I gave some INFORMATION. Because, two, you made reference to the Law as it was written ON STONE… overlooking its existence BEFORE that time. I attempted to give you some HISTORY… some BACKGROUND… some TRUTH… so as to help you put things in a proper perspective. And w hile obviously it did nothing for YOU… I am sure that some have come a much better understanding because of it.

    The fact is god showed callous, unloving, judgmental favoritism toward his two sons, neither of whom had the fortune of learning from past generations what the unseen deity required. Pleasing him was a matter of trial and error. Much like, it would seem, god's parenting skill.

    First, Cain was not God's son; only Abel was. Second, again I must say that I find it quite interesting that while it WAS God's son, Abel, who was killed… by the Devil's son, Cain... and even then, God did not interfere, but instead let, Cain, the killer, off the hook... it is Cain’s “plight” ( which turned out MUCH better than Abel's) that you have an issue with.

    In light of the nature of the discussions in this very thread, I have to say (scratching head) "o -kay"…

    p.s. I noticed that for the second time you didn't answer my question. I will ask it again: Why did god – as you say – PROTECT "murderous" Cain? (Perhaps Matthew sheds some light on that?)

    I absolutely answered your question, and the ENTIRE Law... both the Old Covenant and the NEW Covenant... "sheds light" on it: He did so for the SAME reason He did not hold the errors of Moses, David, Saul of Tarsus, Peter and others against them: mercy. And I not only stated that, but gave you verses to support it. Did you read them? If you had... you have "seen" your answer.

    Cain did murder his brother. Of that there is little doubt. The unwritten law of your god demanded justice, yes?

    Depends. On what? On whether there was a request for mercy, which is a "higher" law. Always has been. It was THAT "law"... that Moses constantly appealed to when pleading on behalf of Israel. It is the same "law" by which the High Priest sought atonement. And it is the SAME "law" by which my Lord pleads... for all mankind. And I gave you the verses that supported that.

    Even your god said that Abel's blood cried out from the ground, yet Cain was not only allowed to live but was given a wife and a home. Please tell me: why did god break his own law (or allow his law to be broken with impunity) in the matter of Cain?

    My Father did not “break” His own law: He... FULFILLED it. He... showed LOVE for someone... by means of granting them MERCY... even though such one did not DESERVE it. It is true that justice is a requirement under the Law, Teejay. But mercy is, too! BOTH carry the same weight. However, if YOU were the "perpetrator" and YOU begged for mercy... which "law" would YOU want handed down to YOU: justice... or mercy? And thus, is not the GREATER law... greater than justice... the one that says, "You MUST love your neighbor AS you love yourself?"... which is FULFILLED in "All things, then, that you want men to do to YOU... you must do... to THEM"?

    Cain... did not follow any of these laws: he did not have love for Abel, he did not show mercy for Abel, he did not love Abel as himself... and he did not do unto Abel as he would have had Abel do unto him. Yet, my FATHER... did unto CAIN... what he (Cain) was himself unable to do - what you and I are charged to do: FORGIVE.

    Why is that so difficult for you to understand, Teejay? Do you understand what mercy IS? It is… UNDESERVED kindness. Cain… did not DESERVE the kindness shown to him… but he received it nonetheless. Undeservedly so. Mercifully so.

    I would say “hear… and get the sense of it,”… but I truly think it would be... moot.

    As always, I bid you peace.

    Your servant, and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

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