SJ said - why is so difficult to assume that God has HIS reasons for doing what He does... things that may be far beyond understanding...
TJ said - It's a flaw of mine, Shelby. I can only see something as I can see it. If god does something that is beyond understanding, then I would hope that he'd be forgiving for my lack of understanding. Perhaps you should, too?
He IS forgiving of it, Teejay... and I hold NO illwill against you for it, either. But more than forgiving, both He and I, by means of Christ... are TRYING to help you see... MORE. Can we be blamed if YOU don't WANT to see more, but only what you now see... which is what YOU... CHOOSE?
Based on human limitations, I've tried to see things from god's vantage point. So far I am unable to justify some (a lot) of what that one does.
Sigh! Teejay... dear one... that is because YOUR eyes... are limited. "Blind". Can you see as a fly does? Do YOUR eyes WORK like a fly's? Or do you need some type of "tool" to help you... some kind of kaleidoscoping instrument?
Can you see the planets with your naked eye? Can you see what is in the deepest part of the ocean? Or do you need a "tool"?
All I have been trying to do is help you... and others SEE... is that you need a "tool"... and that there indeed IS a "tool". Christ. If YOU don't want to SEE that there is a "tool"... and YOU don't want to USE the "tool"... how can you be angry with God?
When discussing these types of issues with me, please always bear in mind that, unlike you, I am working at a severe disadvantage: god doesn't talk to me and never has.
Yes, you are disadvantaged, dear one, but not in the way that you think. God HAS spoken to you and DOES speak to you. You... refuse to HEAR. And this indeed puts you at a disadvantage. How can I say that you REFUSE to hear? Because... not once in all the time that we have communicated have you asked TO hear... by means of the "tool" that He has provided, His Son. How do I know this? Because... had you asked... you would have received. You have not RECEIVED... because you have not asked. And you can try and tell everyone here that you have... but you and I... and God and Christ... know the truth of that. Regardless... of what you SAY.
Not one syllable in four and a half decades.
(Smiling) When you finally get it... whever that may be... you are gonna slap yourself on the forehead... HARD... and say, "THAT was him?! Well, DUH! I mean, yeah, he SAID it was him... but, I mean, I didn't BELIEVE it! I mean, that's not what "THEY" told me it would be like!"
Unfortunately, you won't be able to hold "them" totally accountable. You yourself will have to bear SOME of the... responsibility... for your failure to hear. Because it was YOU... who did not believe it.
For that reason, when it comes to understanding his personality and possible motives, I'm limited by what he (purportedly) said and did as recorded in the bible.
You are limited... by what you... and others... have limited you BY. You have NOT been limited... by God... except to the extent that it is through His Son that you must approach. THAT... is the ONLY... limitation He has put upon us. All others... we either put upon ourselves... or let others put upon us. That is why He says... you have been MISled.
SJ said - To me, however, EVERYTHING that I have seen and hear... is "real" to me... and that of the spirit world even MORE real... because I HAVE experienced it and realized it. And it answers ALL of the questions of THIS world... while THIS world... CANNOT answer a single one of that one's...
TJ said - See what I mean? Everyone has not experienced the same thing.
But... everyone... CAN... dear, Teejay! By means of the same "Way" that I have and do.
You have "seen" the spirit world. I have not.
Don't be too sure, Teejay... don't be too sure. Have you ever had one of those experiences where, when you are about, say, age 13, and all of a sudden you remember something from when you were, say, 4 or 5? Don't be too sure... because most likely, you just don't RECALL what all you have seen. Certainly, if you can't recall all that you have seen in THIS world... you aren't expected to recall what you may have seen of that one.
How then CAN you recall it? The Holy Spirit... will recall BACK to you... all that has been said to you... by the Word. You just have not opened yourself up TO such a thing. Yet.
One would think that you would speak with me with that understanding in mind, rather than your usual (and constant) condescension.
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Ya'll have called me everything from crazy to my Lord knows what. And I have spent hours... days... YEARS... inviting you to "experience" the SAME thing that I have... seeing and hearing what is spiritual. You chide me, ridicule me, slander me and much more... and then you say that I... am condescending.
I have humored you... loved you... been long-suffering with you... and cried over you. In some cases and to some degree I have even begged, dear TJ. I have not left you... nor have I left off from imploring you and trying to reason with you.
But I am the one who is "condescending." Tell me... what MORE... would you have me do? Be even MORE patient? Am I not here... STILL... trying to reason with you on these things?
SJ said - "We" always run around daring people to have an "open" mind. Yet, in TRUTH... for most of us... our minds... and more importantly our HEARTS... exist "closed". Tightly shut against anything that is not of our understanding, and certainly not of the physical world.
I take it that you directed that comment at me? If so, I accept it (although I feel it totally unjustified).
Yes, it was directed at you... and others. And I will tell you the TRUTH of your response: you ACCEPT it, because it is true and your SPIRIT bears witness with that truth. However, your FLESH... has a problem with it. Why? Because... NO "discipline" is joyous... but grievous. While you spirit could hear the truth in the statement... your flesh... took offense. However, the GOOD thing is that your spirit... won. It did not let your flesh lead you to totally reject the truth of what was said. That is the TRUTH, Teejay.
Try as I might, I cannot fathom things that are beyond my ability to fathom.
No, you can't. Not if it is beyond YOUR ability to do. BUT... with CHRIST as the "tool"... it would not BE beyond your ability; by means of HIM... you would most certainly BE... able. You must LEARN... from HIM.
It is like those who cannot "fathom" calculus... or physics... or other galaxies, dear Teejay. Does that mean that such things do not exist? Or does it simply mean that such is beyond THEIR capability... without some kind of help, assistance... tool?
I know you might say, as you have in the past, that my failure to understand the deity lies with me, and I accept both your rebuke of me as well as whatever it is you say I lack in not being able to see or hear god. Maybe one day...
It will occur for you, Teejay. Just KEEP seeking and KEEP asking and KEEP knocking. Do NOT give out. And why do I know that you will receive what you wish for? Because, contrary to what you might want me to believe about you... you are still in this discussion for a reason: you truly want to know God. He knows that. But YOU have to come to terms with the fact that it is on HIS terms that such knowledge will come to you. Through Christ... and only through Christ.
You are angry; He knows that (Psalm 4:4). But... you are not RIGHT. Leave off from your own SELF-righteousness... and seek HIS. Start there.
SJ said - I am not asking you or anyone here to be ignorant, Teejay. Far from it. I am not asking that you believe in a fairy tale. I am not asking that you believe... anything. What YOU believe to be true... is entirely up to you.
TJ said - I believe what is truth TO ME, Shelby. Don’t you?
Of course, I do, Teejay. That is why I am HERE. But while I may state to you that you are in error in your belief... I do not slander you. I do not ridicule you. I do not hold illwill against you. And I do not blaspheme your belief. Rather, I TRY... to show you WHY I believe that I do. And I TRY to do it with a wish for peace... and the utmost kindness and respect.
And because MY flesh grows "tired"... because I am, afterall, flesh with its blood just as you are... and so do not always sound... ummmm... "sweet"... you consider me condescending. But when I DO sound "sweet"... you ridicule that, too. It is as my Lord said: you are like the little children in the market place who cried out, "We played the flute for you... but you didn't dance; we sang a dirge... but you didn't mourn." I'm damned if I do... and damned if I don't. And why not - a slave is not greater than (her) master.
If I deem something as being either out-rightly false or simply unsubstantiated, then so be it. I would expect the same of you.
And that is all that I do, Teejay.
Do you ever say that god has spoken to you when you know full well that he hasn't?
Teejay... hear me. Please. HEAR me. GOD... does not speak to me. Not generally. I have heard His voice... well, three times, now. It is His SON who speaks to me... and no, I have never said that my Lord has spoken to me when he hasn't. I HAVE misunderstood something said... or taken the voice of the Adversary for "truth". But that was quite early on... when I was learning to differentiate... before I truly KNEW my Lord... and the subtle difference between his voice... and the "angel of light" that Satan sometimes transforms himself into.
For example, early on... one "voice" told me that the WTBTS would never receive what I had been given and told to share with them... that others besides me had been sent to them and they either rejected and/or "killed" such ones... but that I had to share it anyway... so that they could not say they weren't told or given enough chance. However, another voice said, "Stay here... wait on Jehovah... they'll get it." Initially, I "listened" to the second voice. But I have learned WHICH voice it is that speaks TRUTH. The second voice said the "easier" thing - but the first voice said the TRUTHFUL thing.
SJ said - You get angry, Teejay... because you do not know God.
Do you really believe that?
That you get angry because you do not know God? Yes. Absolutely.
That I'm angry with god?
Did I say that? Sigh! This is PRIME example: you SAY you listen... you SAY you hear. YOU say you read this and that.
No, I'm not angry with god. OTOH, I don't make excuses for what I see as his mistakes, either
I don't see that He is asking you to make excuses for Him, dear Teejay. HE... does not NEED to be excused. WE... starting with Adam... and moving on to Cain and past... do.
But... you also do not wish to KNOW Him.
Could it be even slightly possible, Shelby, that the judgments you have pronounced upon me here (and in other threads) are totally wrong?
Judgments?! I have not judged you, Teejay. Not at all. Because I tell you the TRUTH... I am "judging" you? You... have called ME... crazy... based on my knowledge and understanding. YOU... have judge ME... as incompetent... insane. You... have "closed the door"... on ME. I have not done so to you.
In your assessments of me, can you truthfully say that you are, without a doubt, perfectly accurate?
No, I cannot say so. Indeed, I would HOPE... that I am wrong... that you simply do not know what you are saying and doing... and CAN open your mind and heart. I would want THAT... much more than I would want to be "perfectly accurate." However, I promise you, Teejay... that I will not LIE to you. I will not "tickle" your ears. I never took you as the type who needed that.
Some here on this board have treated you—in my view—most disrespectfully. They have called you names... said you are mental... even "dangerous." Have I? No. I have never—not once—made such judgments of you.
Are you SURE, dear Teejay? Shall I pull up posts?
Whenever I address you, I do so as an equal, with every bit as much respect for you as I render to any other poster on this board, despite the fact that I generally disagree with your "god" posts.
Now, that is a relatively "new" thing between us, Teejay, isn't it? Our old discussions might show a different "truth". There may even be a recent one...
That being the case... why, I ask, do you repeatedly make belittling judgments of me as you have throughout this thread... judgments that are so often condemnatory in nature?
My dearest, dearest Teejay... if I have in ANY way led you to believe that I think little of you... in ANY way... then I sincerely... and humbly apologize. That was NOT my intention at all... and that is also one of the "perils" of using the Internet... and going by what is WRITTEN: emphasis, tone and intention can be greatly misconstrued. Would you not agree that it is only FACE-TO-FACE that you can get a better idea of the TRUE person with whom you are speaking? It is the same way... with God and Christ: you CAN'T go by what is "written" on paper; you HAVE to see THEM.
How can you be so sure about what I want to know... of where my heart is? The very fact that I engage you in dialog (albeit as an unbeliever) should give you some sort of clue. Sadly, you never get it.
I am sure, Teejay... as I have responded to you above. I DID get it. I have given you the benefit of the doubt, as I give ALL... which is why I still engage in discussion. I will go the distance... until something is said where I can't. The choice in this is not completely mine; remember, I signed on as a servant.
What says your god about your condemnatory, judgmental attitude?
If I told you TRUTHFULLY what He says... you would possibly become even more angry... even at me and possibly at Him. Because I would not lie to you. So, why stir up that fire?
"See" what you wish, Teejay, as regards who has been judgmental and condescending. As for me, my peace toward YOU... remains.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
