Furuli's New Books--Attempt to Refute COJonsson

by ros 264 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    "scholar"":

    : A direct reading of the text at 2 Chronicles 36:20-21 does not support your interpretation nor that expressed in GTR, 3rd edn., pp. 220-24 because the Chronicler does not specify the date when the 'royalty of Persia began to reign'.

    There were no 'dates' as such back then, dummy. Dates were specified by measuring from the accession years of various kings. Since everyone knew when "the royalty of Persia began to reign", i.e., when Cyrus' accession year occurred relative to that of the king in whatever time period they happened to be in, that specified the date.

    You truly have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

    : It is an interpretation which I reject because the context indicates 'the first year of Cyrus' in 538-537 BCE as most commentators agree.

    You can say "the context indicates" all you want. The direct reading talks about Cyrus' accession year. And I'm certain that if commentators actually gave some thought to the issue, they'd unanimously agree with me.

    Which gives me the idea of writing to several respected commentators. But while that would be useful for me, it would not be for you, since you'd reject their statements anyway, being a worshiper of Watchtower leaders and all that.

    : The text does not link the seventy years with the servitude but with the desolation of the land as clearly stated.

    Wrong. The text of 2 Chronicles 36:20 directly states that the Jews became servants to Nebuchadnezzar and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign, and the linkage with the 70 years is directly stated in the prophecy of Jer. 25:11, 12. Then in verse 21 something ambiguous is said about "days of lying desolated" of the land, and this is vaguely linked with the 70 years, but the exact linkage is not stated. Therefore your inference introduces a contradiction, whereas mine does not.

    : Jonsson makes numerous assertions in these pages but does not prove his case at all.

    Sure he does. The problem is that for you, "proof" is "that which the Watchtower claims".

    : The land had to enjoy its sabbath years of rest which amounts to 70 years and not 49 years as he alleges.

    The 49 years is a derived number: 587 - 538, from Jerusalem's destruction to the return of the Jews to Judah. As long as the dates are correct, the 49 year figure is simple math.

    : WHERE IN EARTH DOES JONSSON GET 49 YEARS FROM? NOWHERE IS THIS FOUND IN THE OT.

    See above.

    : Josephus confirms that the land lay desolate for seventy years unti Cyrus which was not 539.

    Josephus either contradicted himself, or was not talking about the actual period of desolation, when he gave a 70 year figure. And remember that in his latest work, Against Apion I, he directly stated that the desolation lasted 50 years. As Jonsson writes (3rd ed. p. 298):

    The Watch Tower Society next quotes two passages from Josephus' works in which the seventy years are described as seventy years of desolation (Antiquities X, ix, 7, and Against Apion, I, 19). [29] But they conceal the fact that Josephus, in his last reference to the period of Jerusalem's desolation, states that the desolation lasted for fifty years, not seventy! The statement is found in Against Apion I, 21, where Josephus quotes Berossus' statement on the Neo-Babylonian reigns, and says:
    This statement is both correct and in accordance with our books [that is, the Holy Scriptures]. For in the latter it is recorded that Nabochodonosor in the eighteenth year of his reign devastated our temple, that for fifty years it ceased to exist, that in the second year of Cyrus the foundations were laid, and lastly that in the second year of the reign of Darius it was completed.
    [29] Josephus mentions the seventy years five times in his works, viz., at Antiquities X, 6, 3; X, 9, 7; XI, 1, 1; XX, 10, 2; and Against Apion I, 19. In these passages the seventy years are alternatingly referred to as a period of slavery, captivity, or desolation, extending from the destruction of Jerusalem until the first year of Cyrus.
    In support of this statement Josephus quotes, not only the figures of Berossus, but also the records of the Phoenicians, which give the same length for this period. Thus in this passage Josephus contradicts and refutes his earlier statements on the length of the period of desolation. Is it really honest to quote Josephus in support of the idea that the desolation lasted for seventy years, but conceal the fact that he in his latest statement on the length of the period argues that it lasted for fifty years?

    So, "scholar", it is evident that you are just as dishonest as your Mommy, the Watchtower Society, since both of you are guilty of deliberately concealing relevant historical evidence.

    : In short, this text shows that 539 is impossible and that the land was the subject of the seventy years and that the Jews were simply captive under rulership at Babylon until Cyrus' decree.

    In short, your exposition shows gross dishonesty and incompetence. Direct readings of the texts, along with completely verified secular evidence, show that various Jews were captives in Babylon from 605 through 538/7 B.C.E., that the destruction of the temple occurred in 587/6 B.C.E. and that the land was partly inhabited the entire time of the supposed desolation.

    AlanF

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Scholar,

    This thread has gotten so long that I thought I had perhaps missed your response, and perhaps you had missed my questions. Also, I'm going to be on vacation for a week and I didn't want you to think I was ignoring you, in case I don't have Internet access for a while.

    So far, here are your responses to my 5 questions:

    #1. No response yet from scholar.
    #2. No response yet from scholar.
    #3. No response yet from scholar.
    #4. No response yet from scholar.
    #5. No response yet from scholar.

    Thanks,
    Gamaliel

  • jws
    jws

    Scholar

    I read your post with amusement.

    As I do most of yours...

    The subject of the seventy is far more complex than you know, if you think I am implying two seventy year periods then you are mistaken.

    Then how about your explanation? How about explaining some of these complexities rather than alluding to them. Share your knowledge - if you have any.

    There are two independent chronologies that I have to hand that refer to three seventy periods each having a different begiining and end and there at least four different interpretations aside form the Society's chronology that relate to the seventy years.

    Please, please, share them. What are these 3 proposals? What are the proposed start/end dates? And who's theories are they? And where can I look them up? Any thoughts on what is the starting point of the 70 years in Zechariah? It would seem 70 years prior would land right in the 586/587 timeframe. So it seems *something* happened at that time. What?

    The Jonsson hypothesis of seventy years is about servitude or captivity at the expense of the specific and direct reading of texts in Daniel and Chronicles that the land lay desolate for seventy years. No amount of clumsy and speculative exgesis can prove the Society wrong. Their current and traditional understanding of the seventy years is brilliant and can only be teastament to divine revelation.

    And who exactly was that divinely revealed to? Because CT Russell started his 70 years in 606 and ended them in 536. He used the year Babylon was overthrown, not when the Jews were sent home to end his 70 years. At that time, the year he had for that event was 536. Choosing the overthrow of Babylon (not the release of the Jews) seems in line with a direct reading of Jeremiah 25:12. And as for this being divinely revealed, this wasn't CT Russell's idea. If this idea was divinely revealed, then it was not revealed to Jehovah's Witnesses or even Bible Students. Why would God reveal this to anybody other than his "chosen organization" - unless this is not his chosen organization... And what exactly makes it so brilliant? It's a simple matter of picking a date and counting backwards to arrive at a date that nobody else seems to support.

    The date of 607 and the Gentile Times ariising thus from is a powerful stimulant to the preaching of the gospel. If you want to believe in a complex, inventive and decptive chronology then that is your choice. I prefer to believe in a chronology that is faithful to scripture and has a simple and direct methodolgy.

    Oh yeah, right, the Gentile Times ended in 1914. Yep, those Gentile nations really got theirs in 1914. Wonder where they are today? Oh yeah, all around us. Old regimes changing, new ones coming to being, same as always. Yep, obvious they're no longer in charge. What a brilliant thought! And how can ignoring Jer 25:12 be faithful to scripture?

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Whilst writing to the commentators I can give you some problems on the text at 2 Chronicles 35:20,21 so that your understanding can be adjusted, you do not have to share it me as I am an apologist for the Watchtower chronology. But if the said are competent then their comments will be published and will eventually come to my attention.

    Concerning Jonsson's 49 years of desolation it is not a derived number but a deception similar to the unproven assertion that the royalty of Persia began to reign in 539. You show me one scholar or commentator who supports this interpretation. This verse does not a chronological datum as does the context which refers to the first year or regnal year of Cyrus which is 538/7BCE.

    In short we have the following mess: Jonsson -49 years of desolation; Josephus -70 years in two or 5 times of deolation and 50 years in one case; Watchtower= 70 years of desolation; community of scholars- either a symbolic number or undetermined.

    By the way, where Jeremiah is referred twice in the above texts, What specific texts in Jeremiah is the Chronicler alluding to and what proof do you have? That is a big problem for you.

    scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

  • scholar
    scholar

    jws

    I am glad that I amuse you here the references for your consideration:

    companion Bible, 1974 p.615

    The Sequence of Events in the Old Testament, Eliezer Schulman, 1987,p.143

    Gosh I just saw Alan F tear off to the library, he looks worried to me.

    Enjo

    scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman
    Oh, IW, I could easily prove your claims wrong. But because you're only interested in winning an argument, anything I write would be useless because you'd reject it out of hand, just as you've done with the 95% of my earlier long post.

    Alan,

    You seem to think that your posts must be answered point by point otherwise it is disrespectful. Who made this rule? Have you never picked a point out of someones post and called it? Even so, what right do you have to set the rules as to what an appropriate response should be? Or that not to respond to every statement equates with disrespect?

    Who are you?

    At the beginning of this discussion I asked a simple question, you were the one to insist that I engage you in conversation. I am not interested in winning an argument, no one can win an argument with you Alan.

    IW

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    "scholar":

    : Whilst writing to the commentators I can give you some problems on the text at 2 Chronicles 35:20,21 so that your understanding can be adjusted,

    Go right ahead.

    : you do not have to share it me as I am an apologist for the Watchtower chronology. But if the said are competent then their comments will be published and will eventually come to my attention.

    Whatever. This will take quite some time, as you know.

    : Concerning Jonsson's 49 years of desolation it is not a derived number

    Of course it is. I already did the arithmetic for you.

    : but a deception similar to the unproven assertion that the royalty of Persia began to reign in 539.

    This is truly a moronic assertion. Tell me, "scholar":

    In what year did Cyrus conquer Babylon?
    Was Cyrus a Persian?
    If so, then when did the Persians under Cyrus begin ruling over Babylon?
    Do you understand the difference between an accession year and the first year of a king in the Babylonian system of dating?
    If Cyrus' first year began on Nisan 1, 538 B.C.E., then what period of time did his accesison year cover?
    Did the Babylonian kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar rule after Cyrus became king of Babylon sometime between October, 539 and Nisan 1 of 538 B.C.E.?
    If not, then who was ruling over Babylon between those dates?

    "Scholar", if you can't answer the above questions in a reasonable manner, then you have no idea what you're talking about.

    : You show me one scholar or commentator who supports this interpretation.

    I already told you: it matters not what commentators or scholars say when the Bible itself is unambiguous. If they miss important points, that's their lookout.

    : This verse does not a chronological datum

    Pardon me?

    : as does the context which refers to the first year or regnal year of Cyrus which is 538/7BCE.

    The context refers to no such thing. The text directly speaks of when "the royalty of Persia began to reign". The phrase "began to reign" is a direct reference to Cyrus' accession year, not his first year as king.

    : In short we have the following mess: Jonsson -49 years of desolation; Josephus -70 years in two or 5 times of deolation and 50 years in one case; Watchtower= 70 years of desolation; community of scholars- either a symbolic number or undetermined.

    It's only a mess if you don't know what you're doing. Watchtower's interpretation conflicts with both the Bible and secular history, and therefore is invalid. Josephus appears to contradict himself and can safely be ignored (except that his 50 year number is within one year of what all modern scholars implicitly accept by accepting standard chronology). Some scholars put different interpretations on the text that don't accord with what the text actually says, and others simply don't address the fine details. So the only real confusion is on the part of those who don't fully comprehend what the Bible actually says, along with the fact that it corresponds perfectly with independently established secular history.

    : By the way, where Jeremiah is referred twice in the above texts, What specific texts in Jeremiah is the Chronicler alluding to and what proof do you have? That is a big problem for you.

    On the contrary, this is a simple problem. Jeremiah speaks of seventy years in only two passages: Jer. 25:11, 12 and 29:10. The passages are consistent with and complement one another, and so the Chronicler's reference must be to both texts. More specifically, 2 Chron. 36:21 refers to Jer. 25:11, 12, and 2 Chron. 36:22 refers to Jer. 29:10. Would you like me to explain the connections, or can you do it yourself?

    "Scholar", do keep in mind that you're not dealing with a fellow braindead JW here.

    AlanF

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    "scholar" said to jws:

    : I am glad that I amuse you here the references for your consideration:

    We're all quite amused by you, "scholar".

    : companion Bible, 1974 p.615

    You've got to be kidding! This was written by E. W. Bullinger (1837-1913) and completely conflicts not only with all modern dating, but with Watchtower dating. Therefore you and we must reject Bullinger's interpretations of anything to do with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

    Bullinger's dates are completely off the mark by more than a hundred years. He has Nebuchadnezzar as king during the reign of Artaxerxes (sometime in 454 B.C.E. he claims; cf. Appendix 91, p. 132), whereas Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 B.C.E.

    On page 615 Bullinger claims that there are three distinct periods of 70 years: the "servitude", the "captivity" and the "desolations". He dates them as follows:

    The "servitude": 496-426 B.C.; 4th year of Jehoiakim to the conquest of Babylon
    The "captivity": 489-419 B.C.; capture of Jehoiachin to the death of Cyrus
    The "desolations": 479-409 B.C.; beginning of last siege of Jerusalem to the 2nd year of Darius Hystaspis.

    These claims are nonsensical, so we can safely relegate Bullinger's comments about the 70 years to the dustbin of theological commentary.

    : The Sequence of Events in the Old Testament, Eliezer Schulman, 1987,p.143

    First off, you should learn how to spell the names and titles of authors you cite, and which you're too lazy or crippled to type in a few bits of information from. The full reference for this book is:

    The Sequence of Events in the Old Testament, Eliezer Shulman, 1987, [Israel] : Investment Co. of Bank Hapoalim : Ministry of Defense, ISBN: 9650502688

    Second, this book was apparently printed in such minute quantities (only 17 states in the U.S. are listed with OCLC (Online Computer Library Center) Worldcat (Worldwide Catalog; "bibliographic database built by the world's libraries") as having this book in their collections) that it's well nigh impossible to find, new or used. Such a small printing indicates that it was of little value to the world's scholars. The fact that it was published by Israel's Ministry of Defense is another clue as to the low value of the book for real scholarship.

    Third, since the book was published by Israel's Ministry of Defense, it almost certainly goes along with traditional Jewish dating of the various events in Jewish history -- which is supported by no secular data but pretty much only by Jewish tradition, and which conflicts completely with secular and Watchtower dating.

    So, with high probability, we may safely dismiss what this book says.

    Now of course, "scholar" might grace us with his wisdom yet again by getting off his lazy ass and posting the bits of content that actually support his claims. But, as with Bullinger above, the actual data given in the book will be seen to have no support from either standard secular dating or Watchtower dating. Therefore one might wonder why "scholar" has chosen to include such a reference. But we already know: it's yet another straw to grasp at, another bit of information that a JW apologist thinks might confuse his critics. All in all, right unscholarly!

    : Gosh I just saw Alan F tear off to the library, he looks worried to me.

    I'm not a bit worried by the sort of references you've given. Nor by the excuses you feed on.

    AlanF

  • Alleymom
    Alleymom
    The Sequence of Events in the Old Testament, Eliezer Shulman, 1987, [Israel] : Investment Co. of Bank Hapoalim : Ministry of Defense, ISBN: 9650502688

    Second, this book was apparently printed in such minute quantities (only 17 states in the U.S. are listed with OCLC (Online Computer Library Center) Worldcat (Worldwide Catalog; "bibliographic database built by the world's libraries") as having this book in their collections) that it's well nigh impossible to find, new or used.

    AlanF --

    The University of Maryland library has a non-circulating copy of this book. I'm curious, so I'll take a look next week; the library is currently closed between summer sessions.

    Marjorie

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Both of us are entrenched in our opinions, views and interpretations respecting chronology so you do your business and I will do mine.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit