To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

by Amazing 91 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Gordy

  Northern Girl

  Did I say anything about NOT questioning Ray Franz.

  As “Jst2laws” states you have misunderstood went I was trying to say. I was not saying that criticism of Ray Franz was “taboo”.

  I was saying that if Ray was to state something without strong evidence to back it up. The WT would jump at the chance to discredit him. They would then use this to call into question everything he has said before.

  I'm sure you have seen similar when someone exposes what the company they have worked for , is doing wrong. That company will then do their best to discredit the person, it then calls into question all his other eveidence. Can it be relied on, is it true, should we believe anything he says etc.

  Yes, if the person is wrong he should be exposed as so. There is no "taboo" on anyone.
• 

  ros

  Simon said:

  ... or simply doesn't have any information?!

  Actually, to my knowledge, that is the case. I asked Ray about Greenlees some years ago, as to whether he was dismissed from Bethel, as rumour had it, for being homosexual. Ray said very pointedly, "tendencies . . . tendencies." He indicated no knowledge of any kind of actual sexual misconduct committed by Greenlees at Bethel.

  Ray is very careful about hearsay and gossip. He avoids it. Considering how badly he and his wife have been personally affected by it, one can readily understand why. He is very careful to avoid slander.

  It would seem others might see a lesson from a recent thread here about Ray and a letter supposedly written by Ray objecting to copyright infringement for his Spanish material on the Web. Whether or not it was justified, evidently that letter has been exposed as a fraud.

  ~Ros
• 

  LittleToe

  There are two things (just to begin with) that I take umbrage at, in this thread:

  Firstly - what's with this business of slating former elders??

  I was an elder, but I've never had anything to do with the inner workings of JWD. I'm just a poster, like any other. No better, no worse. Perhaps a little less educated, due to my previous goals in life, but that's hardly unique here.

  I think it's despicable when folks use the "elder-mentality" card to produce a knee-jerk reaction in other posters. We all know how things like that can be trigger words, and yet it's used openly in situations where character assasination is desired.

  Some of us would also like to happily live down that chapter in our lives, without continued reference to it. More often than not that is a factor in us acting quite differently to how we may have in the past. There may be a point, in the case of former elder-wannabe's, but that's another issue.

  People get on their high horse over all manner of things, and demonstrate it in all sorts of forms of expression. WTF has that to do with previous roles in the WTS? This isn't the WTS, so get over it for gawd's sake!

  Further, Simon never was an "elder". Why accuse him of it, as some have, in the past?

  Secondly - and this is to IW with regards to Jst2Laws, are we forgetting that at Jst2laws was still "underground" during the time of the first Ray/BB fiasco? People's circumstances change, through time, and this is a typical case of it.
• 

  Simon

  Well said Little Toe

  I think people forget that not all elders were bad, evil or covering up misdeeds etc...

  Many were decent guys trying to do what was best and help people. They continue to try and help people now and I don't think it's fair to insult them by lumping them all together. They volunteer their time and energy for absolutely no reward whatsoever and don't deserve to be slated for it.

  Wanna know something? Plenty of publishers were pedophiles but we wouldn't like being classed as them would we?
• 

  Prisca

  For what it's worth, I didn't use "Elder-mentality" as a trigger word, nor as a way of stirring anyone up. It is simply a description of an attitude. If it doesn't apply to you, then you've got nothing to get upset over, have you?

  I think what Waiting wrote was very well said, and aptly described the attitude of some "forum assistants" aka moderators at times. No one is picking on anyone in particular, nor all of them. But the attitude of "I have more posting power than you therefore my opinion/decision has more weight" is displayed at times. Perhaps it's harder for Simon and those closer to the action to see.

  If mods are going to start threads that are related to other threads that were locked, then why do they think that they can stipulate that their threads should not be locked, or why do they think they have more right than other posters to continue discussions that are only going to cause further controversy/arguments?

  Of course, to be accused of acting like an elder is going to put any of us on the defensive. But for some of us to be able to observe it, and be brave enough to comment on it, is indication enough that this attitude is displayed by some, IMO.
• 

  Brummie

  WTF I have never in at anytime on this board played "the elder" card or objected to anything any mod has ever done. No one is judging people for the past role they had in the Society. Its the CURRENT elder mentality that WE all can come under the scrutiny of. and that mentality is displayed by a lot people who where never even elders.

  For me, this is not about Ray Franz its about his little crew who are only trying to do their best for him at the expense of misinterpeting other peoples feelings and overlooking anything in the stampede to defend him.

  Fact is, and as is clearly seen here, some people wouldnt recognise elder mentality if it smacked them round the cheek. We can all take umbrage but when you see a lady treated this way and made to feel bad about herself for a public apology you realise how pathetic the elder mentality really is.

  To in some way help, but Ray Franz in his way could not. So it was with this family, they suffered, they too were left hanging in the wind because Ray Franz personally objected to breaking a scripture. The scripture was not one of the Ten commandments or anything this was simply one of Paul's little instructions we all know and love, but Ray Franz let them hang and walked away. In their case permanent harm occurred, terrible irreversible harm.

  If this is all ok with you then I suggest you begin to defend the Society for the damage they cause on peoples lives by abusing Scripture. Because if anything is dispicable on this thread, its the double standards and overlooking the issue. Let Rays little helpers go and ask him if IW had the rights to mention the above.

  Funny thing I have just recognised recently is how people play the Bill Bowen card or "aggresive silent lambs movement card so casually everytime someone makes a statement that disagrees with their view. A lot of cards are played around here and all seem to thrown in just to divert attention from the real issues.

  For what its worth I couldnt really give a flying for the emotional outcry on behalf of RF, he probably isnt the slightest bit interested, so take a tissue and blow your sorry nose.

  When you realise that people now have to watch every little thing they say when it comes to public apologies or at the mention of Ray Franz you will see how the elder mentality is very alive.

  Brummie
• 

  LittleToe

  Prisca:
  I'll willingly fight for your right to express your opinion, and besides, I like ya (and waiting)

  But I humbly disagree, as someone who isn't "close to the action". Moderatorship has absolutely s0d all to do with "eldership".
  I DO view it as a trigger word, and it REALLY gets my goat when I see it bandied about.
  If it didn't, I would have commented on it. You know how rarely I speak up about such things.

  Are we next going to produce our own expletives?
  The JW's call us "apostates", to disparage us. Do we call all highhanded ingrates "elders", "Nephinim" or even worse, "GB members"?

  LT - of the "I prefer a quiet life" class
• 

  Simon

  And if anyone defends anyone else against insinuation (note: yet again, no facts) does that mean they have an elder mentality?

  C'mon people, this is getting a bit rediculous and is really starting to piss me off.

  Shall I say that some people are being stupid but hey, "if it doesn't apply to you, then you've got nothing to get upset over, have you?"

  There is no 'stempede' to defend anyone. Just some of us want a bit more than allegations.
• 

  waiting

  IW,

  I'll miss you. We tended to not agree a decent amount of time - even last fall over Ray Franz.

  I think we both agree heartily that it's his book - and he can write what he wants. The UN can be interesting. It would seem that the newspapers, documentaries, courts, the world at large etc., don't think so, but hey, there are no victims, no crimes committed. I found it interesting, after it was all explained to me why it should matter.

  Thank you very much for coming back into this thread and explaining your position. There seems to be so many personal feelings, agendas, etc. that in the end, only face value is evident. Which is, it's Franz' book & he can write what he wants.

  As for Chitty and Greenlees? lol - AlanF & I went round & round on them & one of them being a child molester (sorry, I can never keep those men straight....no pun intended, but pretty good for Tues early am, eh?). That's the way AlanF put it forth in a thread. I challenged him round & round - he should put up proof or change his wording. He said he had evidence - but it wasn't possible to put in on the open forum. He finally changed his wording to "alledged child molester" - but then gave enough signifcant information to make it a very strong "alledged".

  Perhaps AlanF is wrong about this also, but he sure seems good in his area.........which is research.

  Adios, Island Woman - enjoy your beach! I am controversial, but only among people who don't share my views. JK Galbraith

  waiting
• 

  LittleToe

  Brummie:
  OOhh, ooohh, oooh - you, you, you...

  ...you "PUBLISHER-mentality-type person" you!!!!!
  

  ~goes away to wipe sorry snotty nose on Prisca's sleeve~
  (btw, my point was addressed generically, and had no reference to the RF issue)
  

  (edited to add emoticons, which I inadvertantly forgot)