To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet (page 9)

Brummie

goes away to wipe sorry snotty nose on Prisca's sleeve~

Well now that is just being plain rude to innocent sleeves, what did they ever do to you?

"Elder" "abuse" Society, Jehovah, Disfellowshipping, apostasy, yada are all trigger words. Its not realy a big deal that exjws make reference to these words to emphasise a meaning that another exjw would understand. What I do agree with is that this "elder mentality" is used far too often and mostly unapplicable and that is annoying.

It surprises me that people think RF is not even slightly capable of taking the action that IW has mentioned. Why? Not every thing Ray said was documented in his book, some was word of mouth but that doesnt lead me to disbelieve him just because he didnt supply the telephone number and address of the person he commented on. Same to IW.

Its also surprising that Ray fought tooth and nail for peoples rights to agree or disagree with the Society yet some here dont extend the same grace towards people who disagree with Ray. IMO They have missed the boat.

Anyway, we all knew where this thread was heading. It aint no surprise that its explosive, it began that way.

Brummie

waiting

Hello Brummie,

Fiesty this morning, eh?

To in some way help, but Ray Franz in his way could not. So it was with this family, they suffered, they too were left hanging in the wind because Ray Franz personally objected to breaking a scripture. The scripture was not one of the Ten commandments or anything this was simply one of Paul's little instructions we all know and love, but Ray Franz let them hang and walked away. In their case permanent harm occurred, terrible irreversible harm.
If this is all ok with you then I suggest you begin to defend the Society for the damage they cause on peoples lives by abusing Scripture. Because if anything is dispicable on this thread, its the double standards and overlooking the issue. Let Rays little helpers go and ask him if IW had the rights to mention the above.

Yeah, I've been remiss in this too.

People get so tied up in defense/offense of Bowen/Franz.....we seem to have forgotten that there's an "alledged" victim - of, if nothing else, a penchant for perfect adherence to Biblical Law - of which, we all love and obey.

And you're right - that is the WTBTS defense, pure and simple. "The Bible says......." And how many times did we go to the elders (sorry, but we NEVER went to the sisters for this type of thing) - and they said "I'm sorry, but the Bible is quite clear on this." Or my personal favorite "There is no written directive from the Society on this."

The most famous being "But my husband (or wife) is screwing our dog!" "Well, that is a sin.....but you still can't divorce them for it, as it's not *technically* adultry, now is it?" That's humor, btw, for those who miss it and there's been New Light and I think you can now divorce your mate if they like having sex with your dog/horse/cow/goat more than you.

lol - have to continue to delete major portions of this post for some reason!

waiting

edited to add: may we never forget the real people behind the laws. We are the real people - and we suffered for those laws. Some have suffered much greater and are forgotten.

Brummie

Fiesty this morning, eh?

Lol, blame it on the sugar puffs.

People get so tied up in defense/offense of Bowen/Franz.....we seem to have forgotten that there's an "alledged" victim - of, if nothing else, a penchant for perfect adherence to Biblical Law ...may we never forget the real people behind the laws. We are the real people - and we suffered for those laws. Some have suffered much greater and are forgotten.

On that I rest my whole case. Wise words and quite heavy on the heart as sugar puffs are on the stomach.

Seems to me IW met one of those who people label "alleged victims" when this happens you do get a new perspective and the reality smacks you on the nose.

Brummie

hawkaw

Waiting ... aka "T".

I have just gotten into the office and I am reading someone from Kentucky doesn't like you based on a conversation between you and Barb. Ah gee .....

Let the record stand here that the "hawk" (a.k.a. raptor) has always highly respected and still respects "waiting" and enjoys reading with interest her posts.

hawk

p.s. - tell your better half - the other "T" - I say hi.

waiting

hey hawk,

yeah, I was so surprised when I heard about it......it never occurred to me that someone didn't like me. duh.

Most people who are as attractive, witty and intelligent as I am are usually conceited. Joan Rivers

duh again. I've actually found others who don't like me too. Who would have thought.

waiting - of the hawk fan club

Amazing

Brummie:

You stated:

Fact is, and as is clearly seen here, some people wouldnt recognise elder mentality if it smacked them round the cheek. We can all take umbrage but when you see a lady treated this way and made to feel bad about herself for a public apology you realise how pathetic the elder mentality really is.

To in some way help, but Ray Franz in his way could not. So it was with this family, they suffered, they too were left hanging in the wind because Ray Franz personally objected to breaking a scripture. The scripture was not one of the Ten commandments or anything this was simply one of Paul's little instructions we all know and love, but Ray Franz let them hang and walked away. In their case permanent harm occurred, terrible irreversible harm.

I received this story yesterday from another source. I read it verbatum to Ray Franz. He has no idea what the person is talking about. That is why I have provided the address of Commentary Press so that the source can deal directly with Ray about it.

IW: In all your rhetoric, you still dodged the bullet. You talk about things as though you did not say them. Fact is, I directly quoted your material and dealt only with what you did say.

Jim W.

waiting

Dear Fiesty Brummie,

Joking aside, I didn't want your post to get lost - it's the crux of the matter to me. And in the heat of the battle, (forum assistants, Bowen, Franz, overall view of victims, personalities) - I lost sight of it.

Thank you for reminding me.

People get so tied up in defense/offense of Bowen/Franz.....we seem to have forgotten that there's an "alledged" victim - of, if nothing else, a penchant for perfect adherence to Biblical Law ...may we never forget the real people behind the laws.
We are the real people - and we suffered for those laws. Some have suffered much greater and are forgotten.
On that I rest my whole case. Wise words and quite heavy on the heart as sugar puffs are on the stomach.
Seems to me IW met one of those who people label "alleged victims" when this happens you do get a new perspective and the reality smacks you on the nose.
Brummie

hawkaw

Hey Jim,

Give it up.

Island Woman has left the db.

She's gonzo as of last night - so don't bother any more.

hawk

Amazing

Hawk: My points were primarily directed to Brummie ... and the point is, no one is defending Ray ... we simply wanted Ray to address this. He did ... and so far the continued allegations about some unknown family are again false ... unless some real details can be given to Ray by his invitation.

The problem here is not whether Ray is at fault for something he may have done, but the lack of balls on the part of accusers to stop dodging the bullet, stand up, and deal with the matter. They won't, likely because it is an overblown story, or pure BS, or they are utter moral cowards.

All I can say is that something is worng with this whole picture. - Jim W.

Brummie

and so far the continued allegations about some unknown family are again false ...

That is simply not true. Just because you feel they are false doesnt make it so. This demonstrates my point. To you it is false simply because you feel Ray is right, in reality it could be true of false but you give no roon for doubt simply because you dont think Ray is capable of doing this to a family.

BTW I would like you to know that I respect you as an individual, not all my accusations were directed right towards you, it may seem that way but I'm, for the main, speaking in general. If I disagree with you it doesnt mean I dislike you at all, infact I hold you in high esteem.

Both you and I are abuse survivors but to some we are merely alleged abuse survivors and a topic for conversation. Thats ok, but we are the ones that have to deal with aftermath and no one has the right to undermime that and make the abuser look somewhat innocent, even if they do have the rights to give an opinion they dont have to put those rights to force.

but the lack of balls on the part of accusers to stop dodging the bullet, stand up, and deal with the matter. They won't, likely because it is an overblown story, or pure BS, or they are utter moral cowards.

And you said earlier that this wasnt about IWs reputation at all and then you make this glaring statement. Well thanks for the confession, it all comes out in the wash!

Brummie

You said if this thread got derogatory of personalities you would lock it, well I believe you just did get derogatory towards IW and I believe you did this simply to defend Ray Franz, I rest my case but dont feel any better for having it confirmed.

They won't, likely because it is an overblown story, or pure BS, or they are utter moral cowards.

PS, the above gives 3 derogatory reasons, you forgot to even mention that "they wont" simply because they dont give in to the pressure of bullying of kangeroo courts or for some "moral" reason, see its all about defending Ray at the expense of anyones heartfelt feelings. thanks again.

I've had it up to here with this, someone with a good reputation is allowed to slang match anyone, someone not in the good books is not even allowed to breath without first making sure they have sprayed their breath with the designated RF freshner.

To: IW - Stop Dodging the Bullet

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