Another generation.... (page 12)

Diogenesister

Fisherman there are no " new scrolls" in chapter 20 Rev or anywhere.

If it offends your sense of justice, I understand completely. I don't know if this helps or not, but at a personal level, I don't think a system where all offenses, great and small ultimately carry the same penalty is very satisfying from the standpoint of justice either.

Like I said though, these aren't my beliefs. It is what it is and the JW's have put it in writing many times...

sir82

This wasn't a problem when the current Great Crowd doctrine was conceived and formulated, but the passage of time has made it so. It's going to take some serious doctrinal surgery to fix this. --Much more than the word games we have seen so far with the definition of a generation.

I honestly think that they really don't care.

Sometime within the past 6-8 years, I think it dawned on them that doctrine simply doesn't matter to most JWs.

They could teach that Noah rode a purple unicorn into the ark and over 75% of JWs would say "Wow! I never knew that! That is sooooooo deep!"

They have come to the realization that JWs are in it for the emotional "hit" it gives them. The promise of paradise, and/or seeing dear dead gramma again, and/or finally living in that mansion with a sea view, and/or a sense of purpose in an otherwise drab life, is what holds people in.

The average JW doesn't care if the "great crowd" doctrine has holes in it. It is as irrelevant as what color the 4,045,856th grain of sand on the beach is.

For this reason, there has been the lightning-quick pivot to appealing to emotion. Convention videos, JW.borg, JW broadcasting....all alternating between gauzy shots of impossibly happy families and single pioneer sisters warbling about the "best life ever", vs. fear of impending doom as murderous demonized zombies clamor for JW blood as the JWs cower in the basement, vs. maudlin violin-music-filled vignettes about greeting resurrected "ones"....

They've finally figured it out. Doctrine, outside of "you will be in paradise very soon now", matters not one iota.

Fisherman

I don't know if this helps or not, but at a personal level, I don't think a system where all offenses, great and small ultimately carry the same penalty is very satisfying from the standpoint of justice either. -TD

Does It seems to you that the righteous receive a reward: the resurrection?

Does it also seem to you that by the same token the unrighteous receive a reward -the resurrection?

Fisherman

The have never taught anything even remotely resembling the notion you have floated on this thread - That the resurrected will face God's "Vengeance" in a "Universal Court of Justice" for the sins they they committed prior to their death.

I never said that: Please read what I said

'You got it all wrong. When are people going to realize that Jehovah is a vengeful God, He pays back. Anyone that dares to touch the least of his friends pays and plenty. <BEFORE THE MILLENIUM> They may repent later on but that involves surrendering and how painful it is to realize what they have done (ask Judas Iscariot)

Imagine your resurrected captors having to face you in the Universal Court of JUSTICE (compare1)....

What in the world will KIng David tell Uriah when he must face him (compare2) some day... and too David paid an expensive price, so did Amalek, Pharaoh, Herod, those that murdered Jesus, and any entity who dares to touch any of God's friends.'

(compare1) JUDGEMENT DAY -Rev 20

to be resurrected right alongside your captors????(compare2) What possible incentive is that to be faithful?????

TD

Fisherman,

Imagine your resurrected captors having to face you in the Universal Court of JUSTICE (compare1)..

I'm afraid I'm still not understanding. JW's teach that the judgement of the dead (verses 11 - 15) occurs at the end of the millennium and that judgement is based not on what the person did prior to their death, but what they did after they were resurrected.

"Both “those who did good things” and “those who practiced vile things” will be among “those dead” who will be “judged individually according to their deeds” performed after their resurrection. (Revelation 20:13) When contrasting “resurrection of life” with “resurrection of judgment [Greek, a·na´sta·sis kri´seos],” Jesus was referring to the end result of such resurrections."

(From the April, 1st 1982 Watchtower - The JW bible encyclopedia, Insight On The Scriptures says basically the same thing.)

The examples you have given (i.e. David's treachery, Pharaoh's hard-heartedness etc.) are not the things that these people are going to be judged on. If it helps, I would agree with you that it would be a humbling experience to face the person or persons that you wronged, (Assuming, for the sake of discussion that this is all true...) but that is not directly connected to the point I was trying to make, which is that in JW theology, virtually everyone gets resurrected.

And that does beg the question. If the hope of JW's is simply to grow old and die and be resurrected, (And the 81 years that has elapsed since 1935 has made this a very real possibility..) then why be a JW at all? Why bother? Why not just live as good a life as you are able?

Doubting Bro

It's been awhile since I've researched this, but isn't the teaching that the only ones who don't get resurrected are those that commit the "unforgivable sin" . Of course, in their mind blasphemy against the Holy Spirit = rejecting the WT. The definition I found on the JW website is that the unforgivable sin is working against the Holy Spirit accompanied by a bad attitude. The examples are Judas and the Jewish religious leaders that had Jesus killed. By extension, you could say apostates or anyone that works against JWs are also doing that but as long as they are still alive, they can "repent" by changing their minds.

That's how they get around the problem of the question TD asked. Because if you "know" JWs are right and don't do anything about it, then you will have committed the unforgivable sin and have no resurrection hope.

I think for some people, that teaching makes people stay even more than the shunning of family. I think may that leave but still sort of believe must torture themselves with "what if they are right" types of questions.

TD

That's how they get around the problem of the question TD asked. Because if you "know" JWs are right....

There are quite a number of places in JW literature where it is strongly implied that his would be true of those who left the faith. I'm not sure if I've seen the same wording with regard to those whose only contact with JW's was incidental (?)

It does beg the question though. "Right" about what? In retrospect how should an adult in 1935 have known the JW's were right? At best, that generation was misled and at worst they were lied to about something as fundamental to Christianity as salvation....

At any rate, the problem vis-à-vis the Great Crowd is bigger than the examples I've given to try to illustrate it. There is a theological reason why there were no "Other Sheep" in the year 1776. (Other than the JW pat answer that it was not, "Jehovah's due time.")

The existence of "Other Sheep" 2 1/2 centuries ago would constitute a third distinct class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's teach that the Bible holds out for Christians. In deference to Sir82, the average JW doesn't know or care much about Christian theology, but from an outside perspective this is a problem of epic proportions.

Doubting Bro

TD - I think you are attempting to apply logic to a theology that's not logical.

JWs/WT = the visible or earthly part of Jehovah's organization is the only theology that matters to the average JW. Everything else is simply noise.

Of course, there are some that try to delve into theological type of thinking but honestly those people are few and far between in my experience. And the ones that do are often viewed suspiciously.

I honestly don't understand Fisherman's argument either. Fisherman, if you are a JW, TD offered the official explanation. There is a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. After the Thousand Year Reign is up, there's a final test and Judgement Day is at the end. Everyone alive is judged on whether they followed Satan and the demons once set free from the abyss. If you pass (twice if you live through Armageddon) the final test, then you are home free. If not, you are destroyed forever along with Satan & the demons. And the petting of pandas can continue! Come on, you know that's the teaching! Seriously there is no way that you could be a JW for any length of time and not know that.

prologos

TD: "--There are quite a number of places in JW literature where it is strongly implied that his would be true of those who left the faith. I'm not sure if I've seen the same wording with regard to those whose only contact with JW's was incidental (?) -- Was there not a wt teaching some time ago, that --if you died during a "judgement period" unrepentantly, ( died, just after refusing to take a wt/awake offer for example), your were not be resurrected?

The existence of "Other Sheep" 2 1/2 centuries ago would constitute a third distinct class of Christians who attain neither of the two salvations that JW's teach that the Bible holds out for Christians. -- How so, please give details. was not the wt doctrine that those not of the "little flock" would come back to earth, option B?

Another generation....

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