Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    hooberus,

    What is the answer to these questions? Aren't they rhetorical questions? if so, then how can the son be a created spirit angel by nature?

    Of course the answer to these rhetorical questions is that the Son has sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3) and is in a superior position to the angels. But you continue to ignore the fact that he is superior to them "as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they" (Hebrews 1:4). The writer of Hebrews is not saying he is naturally better than they are but he has inherited a more excellent name. If you inherit something then there was a time when you didn't have it, which is not true of your nature. He says (in 1:4) that the Son "has become better than the angels". This is the same word used in Hebrews 6:20 where it says he became a high priest, or in Hebrews 11:24 when it speaks of Moses as "come to years" (literally, "having become great"), or in Acts 4:11 where it speaks of Jesus as the stone that has become the head of the corner. You do not become something that you already are. This is not minimising the role of Christ. He is at the right hand of God. But he had to come from somewhere. Hebrews shows he became better than the angels, he was anointed above his partners, he was exalted and given a name above all names. None of this makes any sense if he was always so much more excellent than they.

    Earnest

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

    "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Hebrews 1:13

    What is the answer to these questions? Aren't they rhetorical questions? if so, then how can the son be a created spirit angel by nature?

    Earnest said: Of course the answer to these rhetorical questions is that the Son has sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3) and is in a superior position to the angels.

    While I do agree that Hebrews teaches that the Son sat down at the right hand of the Father. I don't believe that your answer is the most direct answer to these questions. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

    "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Hebrews 1:13

    What is the direct answer to these questions? I believe that a direct answer would be: "NONE OF THEM" . Aren't they rhetorical questions? (I believe yes). if so, then the Son cannot be classed with the created spirit angel by nature. Also I think that these verses show that that the son cannot be classed by nature with the created spirit angels: "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    Here, the Son is shown to be separate from all the created spirit angels who bow down to him, Hense he could not be one of this class by nature. The phrase "all the angels" comes from Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX and certainly means "all" with no exceptions.

    "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, . . . Hebrews 1:7-8 Here, the language used clearly shows the Son is shown to be separate from all the created spirit angels. The Son cannot be one of these whom Psalm 104:4 is talking about: "Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, . . . " Hebrews 1:7-8

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Of course the answer to these rhetorical questions is that the Son has sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 1:3) and is in a superior position to the angels. But you continue to ignore the fact that he is superior to them "as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they" (Hebrews 1:4). The writer of Hebrews is not saying he is naturally better than they are but he has inherited a more excellent name. If you inherit something then there was a time when you didn't have it, which is not true of your nature. He says (in 1:4) that the Son "has become better than the angels". This is the same word used in Hebrews 6:20 where it says he became a high priest, or in Hebrews 11:24 when it speaks of Moses as "come to years" (literally, "having become great"), or in Acts 4:11 where it speaks of Jesus as the stone that has become the head of the corner. You do not become something that you already are. This is not minimising the role of Christ. He is at the right hand of God. But he had to come from somewhere. Hebrews shows he became better than the angels, he was anointed above his partners, he was exalted and given a name above all names. None of this makes any sense if he was always so much more excellent than they.

    Earnest

    Earnest, the Lord willing I'll try to have a response to your above point.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

    hooberus : What is the direct answer to these questions? I believe that a direct answer would be:

    "NONE OF THEM" .

    Aren't they rhetorical questions? (I believe yes). if so, then the Son cannot be classed with the created spirit angel by nature.

    I understand that the point you are making is that if the Son cannot be classed with the angels then he cannot be Michael the Archangel, and that the early Christians didn't view him so. Scripture does not have much to say about the Christian view of pre-incarnate Christ. I have mentioned Isaiah 9:6 (LXX) which speaks of him as Angel of great counsel. John identifies him as "the Word" and there is some evidence that he was viewed as the angel of the Lord who spoke with Abraham (John 8:56-58) and Moses (Nehemiah 9:12,13; 1 Corinthians 10:1-4; Acts 7:30-32, 38). How, then, is he distinguished from the angels? Let me give an example which is not identical in every respect but demonstrates the point. Adam was the first and only man who was "naturally" a son of God (Luke 3:38). All other men were sons of Adam. In a sense you could say they were produced through Adam. He is distinguished from all men in that he was a direct creation of God and for a period of time he was without sin. Yet he had the same human nature as all other men. Now let us consider Christ and the angels. Christ was the first-begotten of all creation (Colossians 1:15), and specifically the first-begotten son (Hebrews 1:6). Everything else was produced through him, including the angels (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16,17) who are also sons of God (Job 1:6). Now you may say that he is different from the angels because he was the first-begotten and they were all produced through him. And that is true. Yet they share the spirit nature. On his resurrection Christ became a life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45). It was then that "the angels and authorities and powers" were made subject to him (1 Peter 3:22). To what extent they were subject to him before his incarnation the scripture does not say but as the Word it implies he was the primary spokesman for God. At any rate, it seems that after his resurrection he was exalted to a superior position so that in his name every knee in heaven should bend (Philippians 2:9,10). So, Christ was never one of the angels, i.e. the army of messengers that were there to do God's bidding. He was the Word, the prime spokesman. Sometimes he acted in the capacity of angel/messenger and could be described in that way. Sometimes he acted as leader of the angels and could be described as archangel. Sometimes he acts as apostle and priest and king. These are all functions that he serves. But his nature is spirit. He shares this with other spirit beings including those resurrected from the earth (1 Corinthians 15:48). Earnest

  • morty
    morty

    This way to deep for me...

    mortons68

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Sorry, Morton...too often I spend a dozen words explaining something when just one or two would suffice. I could have summed it all up by simply saying there are two natures that we know of - flesh and spirit. Everything else relates to function.

    Earnest

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    Earnest said: I could have summed it all up by simply saying there are two natures that we know of flesh and spirit. Everything else relates to function.

    While beings can be classified under the general form categories such as "flesh" or "spirit" , within each of these general form natures is a specifiic substance nature.

    For example humans, beasts, fishes, and birds, all have the general form nature of "flesh", yet each has a different specific substance nature. The flesh of humans is different that that of beasts, fishes, etc. Humans do not share the same speciffic substance nature as others such as beasts, fishes, etc.

    "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds." 1 Corinthians 15:39

    Likewise both God and created spirit angels have the general form nature of "spirit" yet, they do not have the same speciific substance nature. God is uncreaed essence, yet created spirit angels are of a differentcreated substance.

    When I say that Christ has a different nature than that of the created spirit angels I am refering to specific substance nature. Christ has the same specific substance nature as the Father, both are YHWH God by nature as opposed to the specific substance nature of created spirit angels.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Re: angels: Though created spirit angels are called "sons of God" and are "spirit" they are not sons of God by specific substance nature. In other words they are of a diiferent speciific spirit substance than God. Angels are not sons in the sence of being of the same substance.

    Re: humans: I am a son of Adam in that I am just as human as he is. I am not a lesser being by specific substance nature. I am equal to Adam in that I am just as human as he is. My sonship makes me fully human and fully equal.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    How, then, is he distinguished from the angels? Let me give an example which is not identical in every respect but demonstrates the point. Adam was the first and only man who was "naturally" a son of God (Luke 3:38). All other men were sons of Adam. In a sense you could say they were produced through Adam. He is distinguished from all men in that he was a direct creation of God and for a period of time he was without sin. Yet he had the same human nature as all other men.

    Though Adam was directly created by God. he would be by nature classed under the heading "human." As you said: "he had the same human nature as all other men." He would also be classed with all other men when men are being comapred to other beings such as spirit angels. For example Adam is included in the class "men" in the example below:

    "For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: . . ." Chapter 2:5-8

    The fact that Christ is shown to be classed separate from all the angels, would likewise exclude him from being any type of created spirit angel including an archangel. Rhetorical Questions such as from Hebrews would surly separate Christ from being any created spirit angel including archangel.

    Michael though an archangel is classed as a created spirit angel in the Bible along with the others.

    "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." Jude 8-9

    "But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 2 Peter 2:10-11

    Thus, rhetorical questions such as these should exclude Christ from being even an archangel, since even archangels are "angels."

    "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" Hebrews 1:5

    "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?" Hebrews 1:13

    Hebrews 1:6 also shows Christ to be separate from all the angels (this must include archangels).

    "Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him . . . " Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

    Here in Deuteronomy 32:43LXX there are two clasees of beings: God and "all the angels of God" who worship him. The second class must mean all with no exceptions. The second class surely includes Michael with the other angels.

    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    Hense, Hebrews 1:6 being a quote from Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX cannot have Christ being Michael since Michael must be in the group of "all the angels" in Deuteronomy. The phrase "all the angels" surely means the same in both verses.

    Now let us consider Christ and the angels. Christ was the first-begotten of all creation (Colossians 1:15),

    The phrase "firstborn of all creation" is discussed in Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59646/1.ashx

    and specifically the first-begotten son (Hebrews 1:6).

    "firstbegotten" probably means first of a series of begotten beings. I believe that this refers to Christ's resurrection.

    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood," Revelation 1:5

    Everything else was produced through him, including the angels (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16,17) who are also sons of God (Job 1:6).

    John 1:3 shows that all things with no exceptions were made through Christ, not "all other" things and not "everything else" that was made, hense Christ could not be a made thing. Christ must have pre-existed all made things and hense could not be a made thing.

    "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:3 KJV

    " All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." John 1:3 NASB

    Now you may say that he is different from the angels because he was the first-begotten and they were all produced through him.

    The phrase firstbegotten probably refers to resurrection, not pre-existence.

    And that is true. Yet they share the spirit nature.

    See my earlier comments on general form nature vs. specific substance nature. I believe that while both God and the angels are "spirit" that they are of a different specific spirit nature. Thus I believe that Christ is God by nature and angels are of a different substance.

    On his resurrection Christ became a life-giving spirit (1 Corinthians 15:45). It was then that "the angels and authorities and powers" were made subject to him (1 Peter 3:22). To what extent they were subject to him before his incarnation the scripture does not say but as the Word it implies he was the primary spokesman for God. At any rate, it seems that after his resurrection he was exalted to a superior position so that in his name every knee in heaven should bend (Philippians 2:9,10).

    I belive that Christ has alaways been God by nature yet took upon an additional nature that of a man. I believe that in his resurrection he is both God and man still.

    So, Christ was never one of the angels, i.e. the army of messengers that were there to do God's bidding. He was the Word, the prime spokesman. Sometimes he acted in the capacity of angel/messenger and could be described in that way.
    I agree with this statement, and would strengthen it to say that he never has been one of the angels including archangels.
    Sometimes he acted as leader of the angels and could be described as archangel. Sometimes he acts as apostle and priest and king. These are all functions that he serves. But his nature is spirit. He shares this with other spirit beings including those resurrected from the earth (1 Corinthians 15:48).
    I don't think that Revelation 12:7 should be applied to Christ based on a similarity in word structure to 2 Thessalonians 1;7-8.
    1. Contextually they are talking about two different events (one an angellic battle, the other Christs coming).
    2. When versses talking about Christs comming are looked at compared to their OT prophesies the scriptures show that Christ is the Jehovah who is comming with his angels and saints. This agrees with context as well as word similarities.
  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Is Michael one of these? "Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him . . . " Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

    Then Jesus could not be Michael since the scripture says:
    "And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6

    Is Michael one of these? "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" Psalm 104:4

    Then Jesus could not be Michael since the scripture says: "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, . . .

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