Who told the first lie? (page 20)

Halcon

...and what's behind chemistry?..

..good, you see where this is going jeffro.

The fact that you are asking for the correct definition of the word 'spirit' confirms you believe it exists.

For the purpose of this thread, that's all that's needed.

Jeffro

Halcon:

The fact that you are asking for a definition of the word 'spirit' confirms you believe it exists.

🤦‍♂️ No, it only assumes that you believe it does

peacefulpete

Halcon are you suggesting 'spirit' is involved in chemical reactions?

BTW, my earlier comments do not endorse the theology of the Yahwist author, I was just describing it. As a scribe or committee of scribes, they sought to promote the nomistic aspect of the cult. Obedience/compliance was valued above individualism and intellect. Personally, I don't regard that as especially enlightened or attractive. We left a religion like that.

Halcon

Pete- I was just describing it. As a scribe or committee of scribes, they sought to promote the nomistic aspect of the cult. Obedience/compliance was valued above individualism and intellect. Personally, I don't regard that as especially enlightened or attractive.

Here, I was simply highlighting the inevitability of these stories to engage the most fundamental parts of ourselves, the mind heart and spirit. As you described, you took them personally and reacted accordingly.

are you suggesting 'spirit' is involved in chemical reactions?

I believe in God, so of course . If spirit animates the inanimate, then it follows that it will engage with elements, chemical reactions, etc. to the point of causing it to be alive.

peacefulpete

Here, I was simply highlighting the inevitability of these stories to engage the most fundamental parts of ourselves...

Absolutely, I agree. Story and myth are powerful tools.

You might enjoy this classic:Amazon.com: The Power of Myth: 9780385418867: Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers: Books

Regarding 'spirit' in inanimate processes and forces; many forms of religion, including that of the Jews, understood their world to be actively engaged/animated with spirit, as a causative agent. The deity was responsible for all that moves.

A famous example of this is at 1 Kings 19. It is a classic example of editorial redaction, interpolation. A standard theophany of Yahweh is painted, he reveals himself in wind, fire and earthquake. However, the Deuteronomist made some adjustments to the story that disturbed him. To keep this brief, he then repeatedly interjects a denial after each physical appearance/manifestation of Yahweh.

Here is the story, the bold is the redactors work.

11 The Lord said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of Yahweh, for Yahweh is about to pass by.”
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before Yahweh, (Yahweh was not in the wind). After the wind there was an earthquake, (Yahweh was not in the earthquake). 12 After the earthquake came a fire, (Yahweh was not in the fire). And after the fire came a gentle whisper. 13 When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.

There much more to this episode worthy of discussion but, my point is the Deuteronomist's adamant denial that his God was directly inhabiting the physical natural world. I'd suggest he'd similarly deny the idea of the divine animation/inhabitation of chemistry or even biology. For him Yahweh was separated from the physical world and not actively animating it.

Halcon

Thanks for the link Pete, I will definitely check this out. I'm right in the middle of David McCullough's 1776, in the spirit of 4th of July. Great read so far. I'll reach for your recommendation next. I'm especially fascinated by the Greek and Roman mythologies since childhood. Looking forward to learning a bit more on the subject.

However, the Deuteronomist made some adjustments to the story that disturbed him. To keep this brief, he then repeatedly interjects a denial after each physical appearance/manifestation of Yahweh.

Indeed, this is an aspect that is predominant in the Christian faith...the separation of God from his creation or anything else for that matter.

We see this separation play out repeatedly in the scriptures. The need for the curtain between the Holy and the Most Holy in the tabernacle and Temple...Moses and Jesus as intermediaries...the example you quoted here...the considerations in this very thread...

God creates, he remains the Creator but is not his creation. He reinforces this concept over and over.

As I understand it, this 'law' of separation established by the Creator himself, is what logically leads to the cause and effect of countless incidents in the Bible, the greatest of them being the necessity of Jesus to counterbalance the loss caused by Adam.

In other words, because NOT all is one...other measures must be taken...(versus God simply starting over for ex).

Jeffro

Still waiting for a meaningful definition of ‘spirit’.

Because the previous attempt was entirely asinine, it’s probably worth clarifying the difference between a definition and a function. If someone says a blurgle is hiding their socks, ‘the thing that hides socks’ is not a definition of ‘blurgle’. It’s just an argument from ignorance.

peacefulpete

Indeed, this is an aspect that is predominant in the Christian faith...the separation of God from his creation or anything else for that matter.

Many Jews and Christians would find that comment odd. Most would rather understand the animating of creation, including Adam, as the result of divine 'spirit/wind/breath' -a divine spark. Ecc 3 describes this divine 'spirit' as returning to God. Many saw the same in the trees and the wind.

This is still seen in pericopes like John 9:6 where the man's healing is accomplished by a wind. Same as John 5 where the invalids rushed to enter the water when a breeze (from God) disturbed the surface.

Not only that but on a theological level, the indwelling of Holy Spirit is the key identifier of a Christian. God/Christ dwells in Christians.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

Again, I'm not endorsing any theology here merely pointing out that many did not agree with the Deuteronomist. It's an interesting topic.

nicolaou

Halcon: The fact that you are asking for the correct definition of the word 'spirit' confirms you believe it exists.

Halcon, how would you define 'unicorn'?

Halcon

Pete- Many Jews and Christians would find that comment odd. Most would rather understand the animating of creation, including Adam, as the result of divine 'spirit/wind/breath' -a divine spark. Ecc 3 describes this divine 'spirit' as returning to God. Many saw the same in the trees and the wind.

I was simply pointing out that the scripture you quoted about Yahweh not being in the wind made sense since God is not the wind, or any other creation.

Your comments about the divine spark and divine spirit God emits, if I'm understanding them correctly, would be the same as mine.

Who told the first lie?

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