Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou 299 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    If you are saying that Adam was created without literal knowledge of "good and evil" and that God's command was therefore like expecting a dog to know the difference between sweet poison and sweet juice, then you are also saying that the other aspects of the text are literal too.

    I'm just taking the story at face value. There was a tree of "knowledge of good and evil". At some point, if you believe this story as literal history, they ate the fruit. Ok, what did that act impart to those pre-humans? Was it the knowledge of good and evil?

    Genesis 2:25 says they felt no shame before eating. Chapter 3:7 they became aware of their nakedness, felt shame. They had (v 5) began to "know good and evil".

    So, before - no knowledge of good and evil. After, they are "like god" knowing good and evil. This is the story handed to us by JWs and other people who take this as history.

    I was exploring what it means for a human (pre-human) to be in that state, and what it implies about their ability to take the "right" course of action. And what that means about the culpability of doing "wrong".

    Everyone keeps focusing on the serpent, whether you believe it was Satan or not, as being so clever. Oh poor Eve. She was tricked, lied to, and now look at us. No, she wasn't tricked. She had no idea what was happening to her. She couldn't decern good from evil. She couldn't detect deception because she couldn't understand evil.

    I compared them to a dog because without a moral compass there is nothing to guide self control, and even if they are incredibly intelligent, they would behave like dogs.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Taken literally, that might be the strangest part. Is it evil to be naked?

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou
    Is it evil to be naked?

    Only if you do it right

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Tonus- We ended up with one where suffering has been a constant state for thousands of years, and will be a constant state forever for a great many people. I think the former is the better option. If it isn't, then I would be very worried about the nature of the person who runs this universe, that he would see that second outcome as acceptable, especially since it required two people to do what he expressly asked them not to do.

    All of these are signs that we are not the same as God. That the decision is, ultimately, not up to us.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Just had an interesting interaction with a Rabbi online. His take was pretty interesting. In the spirit of comments from KaleboutWest, he emphasized the literary nature of the episode. His view, and apparently not an unusual one, is that the pericope is a dramatization of the superiority of humans over animals in their "being like God". This elevation has the consequences (cost) of self-awareness (nakedness) and acute sense of mortality (day you eat you will die). Rather than being a 'fall' in fact it was a celebration of human intelligence and psychology while acknowledging our mortality.

    This then suggests all these elements of the story are primarily etiological. Just as the story is a mythical origin story for why women struggle in childbirth while other animals generally don't and why snakes have no legs, the story is a folk-tale-style treatise on human nature. The man and woman represent all people, so describing them as the first makes narrative sense.

    Rather than being a commentary opposing freewill it is actually celebrating the maturation to godlikeness of humans. In a parallel way it celebrates individual growth from children to psychologically developed adults.

    This is a much different take than I had adopted and find the idea quite plausible. It requires we credit the Yahwist with a developed sophistication that, ironically, countless readers did/do not possess.

    My mind goes to the Orwell Animal Farm story as a comparison. Not really a happy ending but powerful animal symbolism of human condition.

    Some might object to the depiction of God as essentially suppressing human potential, but this is actually a recurring theme, recall the tower of Babel story. Yahweh, as a character in these tales, is often depicted morally ambiguous.

  • joey jojo
    joey jojo
    This then suggests all these elements of the story are primarily etiological. Just as the story is a mythical origin story for why women struggle in childbirth while other animals generally don't and why snakes have no legs, the story is a folk-tale-style treatise on human nature.

    There are stories like this in indigenous groups everywhere. For example, the boomerang was once a straight stick that held up the sky but bent because of the weight. That story holds as much credibility as a talking snake. Yet the majority of the world's population belongs to off shoots of abrahamic religions that has a talking snake at the foundation of their beliefs, whether they realise it or not.

  • MeanMrMustard
    MeanMrMustard
    Just had an interesting interaction with a Rabbi online.

    I've never started a post with that statement. Congrats.

    ...the pericope is a dramatization of the superiority of humans over animals in their "being like God". This elevation has the consequences (cost) of self-awareness (nakedness) and acute sense of mortality (day you eat you will die). Rather than being a 'fall' in fact it was a celebration of human intelligence and psychology while acknowledging our mortality.

    I agree.

    There are stories like this in indigenous groups everywhere.

    Yeap.

    No argument from me.

    But there are two categories of Bible readers: those that think Genesis is literal history, and those that do not. Clearly it's less insane to not think of it as actual history.

    But if you do.. well, there's a lot of internal problems with the story.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Pete- Just as the story is a mythical origin story for why women struggle in childbirth while other animals generally don't and why snakes have no legs, the story is a folk-tale-style treatise on human nature.
    Rather than being a commentary opposing freewill it is actually celebrating the maturation to godlikeness of humans.

    As we touched on earlier Pete, this incident in Genesis speaks to the parts of ourselves that God (if you are a believer) considers most important in us. The rabbi and many other very intelligent people on here that are non believers can still see how it moves the human mind, heart and spirit to help explain that very human nature.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Imagine going to visit a solicitor or attorney. In their office you will generally see many volumes which are filled with laws, tons of them, written over many, many years.

    But these law books do not consist of rows and rows of: "It is against the law to do such and such..." That would be unhelpful.

    Instead, these books actually contain stories, similar to:

    On November 16, 1969, one Elena P. Silverstone of Edgetown, New Jersey, was walking her poodle, when the dog broke from its leash and went chasing after the postal carrier a few yards away. The dog bit the man on the leg who, shocked and in pain, went tumbling into the street into oncoming traffic, causing a car to swerve into the front yard of a one George T. Howard and...

    While quite interesting, but the stories are not there to entertain. They are there to teach how laws came to be or were applied in certain circumstances. They set a precedent by means of illustration.

    This model, in the West, was adopted, interestingly, from the Mosaic Law. While the Jews were not the first to invent this formula (as they themselves adopted it from their neighbors of their time period), Christians of the West created their legal systems based on what they learned from the Bible, especially from the Old Testament (which is why one often sees the Ten Commandments in some courtrooms in the West).

    As Peacefulpete noted from his conversation with the rabbi, Jews generally hold to the narrative of the Garden of Eden as being mythology (an ancient form of genre which explains how something originated). It is also important to note that God is considered a character in this play as well: he owns the garden, sets Adam as the caretaker, and takes walks in the garden to talk to the man in the afternoon.

    There is more: at the very beginning of Genesis it is implied that the Torah has always existed as God is actually obedient to the laws of the Torah. God works every day of the week, performing "mitzvahs" or "good works" (which is what the Hebrew term is here) for 6 days, but rests on the Sabbath. Why would God be under the Mosaic Law?

    Let us say, for the sake of argument, that God in this mythology does in fact lie to Adam or asks too much of the man and woman.

    But at the same time, in the same myth, God seems to own a garden that doesn't exist anywhere that one can actually locate. It's description seems to be that of one of the hanging gardens own by Nebuchadnezzar who was long gone by the time this story was composed.

    God doesn't really own a hanging garden in Babylon. God doesn't talk to humans in the way presented in this myth. God isn't under the Mosaic Law. Did God ever really rest on any Sabbath? Jesus said no.

    Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and this is why I keep on working.”--John 5:17 CEV

    This narrative is part of the five law books that make up the Torah, the Mosaic Law. Just like the stories that you find in law books of today, the stories in the Mosaic Law are not there to tell history lessons. They were placed there to teach the Jews how to apply the Law in their daily lives.

    Some of the stories, like that of Abraham, are folklore, based on oral traditions that come from their culture and ancient communities, but they are still selected for the Torah to teach the same thing, namely how to apply the Law in one's daily life. There are other stories about Abraham, for example, that were preserved in the Talmud that are just as ancient but not applicable to the Law (i.e., "Abraham and the Idol Shop" for example, which while also folklore has origins far older than its Talmudic preservation).

    I am not here to say that God did not lie. In fact, in the Hebrew Bible God does lie many times.--1 Kings 22:23; 2 Chronicles 18:22; Jeremiah 4:10.

    The problem is that there might be some readers on this site that could still be influenced by Watchtower theology and misread the following texts in light of Jehovah's Witness religion even though they may no longer be JWs, namely Numbers 23:19, Titus 1:2, and Hebrews 6:18*.

    Regardless of how you wish to read Christian texts, literally or not, these were not envisioned at the time of the writing of the Torah. And in the end, it doesn't matter. If one makes the case that God is lying in the Garden of Eden narrative, then along the same logic, one can make the case that God walks in gardens in the afternoon, and that God is under the Mosaic Law, and that the Torah existed for eternity before the earth was created--for all these things are also in play in the same mythology. You cannot escape one without the other.

    Silly, but there you go. It's called anthropomorphism. If you believe in Biblical literalism and ignore Jewish sages like Maimonides who very cleverly taught that you can just as easily make an idol out of words as you can out of stone or gold or wood, then you are essentially worshipping an idol too since the Ineffable God of Abraham is not made in the image of man with arms, legs, etc., and does not speak, nor walk, nor becomes jealous or lies like humans. If that is what you believe God is, even if it is just in words, it is an "idol" of words.

    The narrative of Genesis, however, is meant to teach the application of the Mosaic Law to Jews. God is no less a character than Adam and Eve in this illustration, to teach the application of law no less than Elena Silverstone, the runaway poodle, and the biten postal carrier in our demonstration regarding narratives in legal books of modern days. Is it that Elena is a lady who likes poodles of all things that is the point of there being a story in a law book or are the stories those law books placed there to set a legal precedent the important thing?

    In various stories of the Bible, at least the Hebrew ones, you find the "character" of God doing all kinds of things due to anthropomorphic composition. But this is not meant to be seen as a dogmatic definition on the theology of God the way Jehovah's Witnesses claim the Bible is to be read. There are various genres in play. Did the Jews wait until the words were written down before they worshipped to become Jews or were they Jews there first and then wrote down the words? Was there God first and then they wrote about God (whether or not God is real)?

    But yes, in the Hebrew Bible God does in fact lie. Just because Christians wrote one thing in the New Testament doesn't change the fact the Jews didn't write what they did in the Hebrew Bible. And what the Watchtower taught doesn't stand as the last word on any New Testament text.

    ____

    *--Numbers 23:19 is Balaam's Oracle to Balak, telling him that God doesn't change course or "his mind" like mere humans; Titus 1:2 is saying that God never lies about his promises; Hebrews 6:18 is saying that people can depend upon God's promise and oath, because God wouldn't lie about these two things.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The claim that the practice of including ‘narratives’ in modern law books was adopted from the Mosaic Law (itself derived from Babylonian law and other early influences) is a simplification. Western legal systems have been developed through various influences, particularly Roman law and English common law. Stating the facts of specific cases in law books is more strongly tied to English common law rather than a direct or intentional adoption of Jewish tradition. The cases establishing case law refer to actual events rather than cautionary fictional tales. Also, the presence of the Ten Commandments in courtrooms or on state land is a reflection of cultural heritage rather than legal foundation. It is a frequent lie, especially in the US, that Western laws are ‘based on the Ten Commandments’. More than half of the Ten Commandments are not laws in the US, and the establishment clause of the US Constitution prohibits the first 4.

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