I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower (page 12)

Phantom Stranger

Whose fault is it that the house is not actually on fire?

I don't know what you mean...

I respectfully disagree Phantom. The WT (as well as Scientology, Moonies, Rebublicans, etc.) are very coercive. Mind control? Well, perhaps not in the absolute sense. But coercive? Come on -- you can "talk this subject to death" and make something coercive appear like it wasn't. In the end -- I JUST DON'T BUY IT.

Yes, the WT is extremely misleading, coercive and manipulative. You don't have to be Hitler to be a bad guy and you don't have to be given Chinese torture to be manipulated. Case closed. Get on with it.

Bradley

logansrun

From the article supplied by PS:

Several studies of Unification Church recruitment workshops reveal that, on the average, fewer than one in ten of those who got as far as attending a Church workshop agree to join the Church, and fewer than one in twenty remain with the Church for two years...
Given these statistics...the only conclusion that can scientifically be drawn is that the conversion practices of the Unification Church are not coercive. These practices not only fail to convert at least 90% of those subjected to them, but actually dissuade the overwhelming proportion. Furthermore, although persons who join the Church remain in an environment plaintiffs' experts would characterize as psychologically manipulative, even most of those initially persuaded to join the Church leave it after a period of months or years. ..

I think this is a rather silly argument. So, if 49 out of 50 people ignore the "Nigerian widower" who sends email begging for help, does that mean there was no misrepresentation for the fiftieth person who fell for the scam hook, line and sinker? Come on!

If someone wants to find "empirical evidence" for coercion I say: "good luck." Try finding "empirical evidence" for love or jealousy and the like. There are some things that simply do not lend themselves to rigid scientific studies. Sorry, I don't buy that line of reasoning at all.

larc

This is a very interesting, complex thread and subject. Who is at fault? I don't know. Perhaps, no one. I started a thread a long time ago, Free Will versus Determinism. I started out by saying that as a scientist, I believe in Determinism, that is, I have no alternatives. As a person, I "feel like" I have free will. Frankly, I don't know the answer. (If you are intertested, look up what I wrote.) Also, you might look in a General Psychology text on the subject of Atribution Theory. Very interesting stuff.

Lady Lee

Stockholm Syndrome

http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/stockholm.html

http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=469

Cognitive Dissonance

http://www.habermas.org/cncgndis.htm

Phantom Stranger

~~Two~~ Three points to note, Bradley:

1) The study did not refer to misrepresentation - it referred to coercion. The case was not about whether the CoS lied - it was about if they coerced through mind control.

2) Your second point is what the APA and other scientists were saying when they said that the position stated was a philisophical one, not a scientific one. They had no problem with the statement being made, as I read it, but they could not characterize the statement as being produced by their field of science - they felt it was produced by a personal philosophical decision, just like the various viewpoints presented here. The various viewpoints here are also personal philosophical worldviews, not scientific conclusions. Many have cited works that define the "mind control" worldview, and I thought I would cite some explanations of a non-mind-control worldview from someone other than myself for balance.

3) Chomsky's indignation is rubbing off, I see...:)

frenchbabyface

PS : I do believe that the responsible approach is much more empowering and effective than the victim approach.

I've choose this line cause it talks for some other lines (wich mean the same) :

That is interesting of course ... but If I would say ... where/when begin someone's responsability when he is viciously manipulated (1) ? So now as you can see it is a question of degree of responsability possibilities ... and each one is different in this matter at any position.

Everybody knows what responsible means ... that doesn't mean that they are able to be responsible or that their responsabilities (view and acts) are not molded by bad influences that control them.

So now what is best for a JW ... Shunning god's organisation or shunning their own kid ? ummmm ???? (not easy for those who believe in god and had been formated to obbey (in thinking doing good !!! ) (1) ... I mean they think they help there kid to come back in shuning him, in protecting them at the same time !!! Oh la la la la ... just see where it leads ... Oooops !)

Are those Parents insensitive YES (guess why ?) ... are they responsible : NO (if they are sincere) YES if they are not sincere ...

I mean ... of course who (normal) would blame the WTBS for what they may have done in knowing being bad (there is a difference here) No normal person can really get into that !!! Or they are in trouble (insane) ... So I guess everybody somehow knows exactly what you are talking about (in the first place ... actually)

Now if you are talking about this in using this using this "title" does that mean you may think we don't know what you are talking about ?!!!... I GUESS NOT Cause ... WE ARE RESPONSIBLE !!! What do you think ??? !!! So is it about just saying I feel good with myself ??? ... Well good ! (well we do feel quiet good with ourselfves too) ... Was that what you wanted to talking about ??? that is an anouncement ! CONGRATS !

but if it is about saying " I have hard time blaming the WTBS " sorry ... "I" don't feel like letting people think that they can push hard on unarmed people as the WTBS is able to do and giving it a blind check ... (no anger here ... But I just can't forget the victims ... cause there's a lot to be blamed for !)

And yes I like Lady Lee's analogy it talks !

Phantom Stranger

FBF, I respecfully disagree that everyone knows what "responsible" means. I believe that very few really do, and our world as it is today is proof to me of that statement.

I can't really answer the rest of your post, except to say that I am not intending to disrespect anyone by taking up a different position on this question. Other than that, I'm not totally clear on your point - my apologies.

jgnat

Personal responsibility vs "mind-control" is a hotly debated subject even amongst Academics. That tells me there IS no easy answer on this one. This fella may be part of the rare middle ground:

http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/study_zimbar.htm

Phillip Zimbardo, professor of psychology at Stanford University, as well as former and current president of the American Psychological Association (APA):
A remarkable thing about cult mind control is that it's so ordinary in the tactics and strategies of social influence employed. They are variants of well-known social psychological principles of compliance, conformity, persuasion, dissonance, reactance, framing, emotional manipulation, and others that are used on all of us daily to entice us: to buy, to try, to donate, to vote, to join, to change, to believe, to love, to hate the enemy.

Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope. One difference is in its greater efforts to block quitting the group, by imposing high exit costs, replete with induced phobias of harm, failure, and personal isolation. Source: Phillip G. Zimbardo, Ph.D., What Is The Message Behind Today's Cults? Off-site Link

Gollum

To a certain extent, my take is that ?S**t happens?.

Even if we are born into the WTBS (like I was) so what? People are born into worse situations every day. So my folks had some wacky believes that caused me in many ways to ?waste? most of my young adult life. So what? I was also born to a poor Idaho stump farming family. That probably affected my life more in some ways. And what affected my life the most was that I was born into a loving, caring family. Loving, caring families happen everywhere and don?t happen everywhere. That?s the luck of the draw.

While I think it can be said that there is a certain level of coercion involved in being a dub, the same thing can be said of any social construct, including society in general. Most of the time, and for most of the people, we sleepwalk within these constraints, hardly aware of them. They are as invisible to us as the air we breath. That's why there are many happy witnesses. We accept them as the natural order, that it?s just the way things work. Occasionally we look up and discover that perhaps the emperor has no clothes and can no longer sleep walk thru our previous constraints and start to push back at them.

Now, having said that, there is more coercion in dubland than say the ?average? modern day Catholic, but we are not talking Jim Jones here either. People overcome worse stuff every day. Our situation is hardly unique.

I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

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