I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Steve - agreed.

    If people do not recognize the trauma they cannot recognize the damage it causes. And I suspect that adults who decide to join will probably have less trauma than those raised in it.

    But just to throw another point into the adult-entered folks - what about those who were raised outside the JWs and then decided to join up later but who were abused before they became JWs? They go from a dysfunctional home environment and right into the dysfunctional JW environment. Many will feel comfortable there simply because the level of dysfunction feels normal to them.

    You are right - this is not black and white (been talking about that a lot lately)

  • wednesday
    wednesday

    the pain of staying became greater than the pain of leaving. That is how i left. The wts is all about pain and fear.

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    The difference between the WTBTS and the companies mentioned above is that neither McDonald's nor any tobacco company utilize high-mind-control techniques to coerce us into using their brands.

    Sorry, have to take strong disagreement to that. Advertising is and will always be a form of mind control. Colors, Words, Timing and all of those little jingles are set to control your mind into thinking you need a product. The society is no different, is uses the power phrase and words to get you to thinking that your thoughts are really yours, when in fact they are really theirs. Yet, you took it in and decided it was what you wanted. No excuse for a weak mind.

    The advertising world does admittedly use cunning means to entice people to purchase their products. However, there is a huge difference between subtle advertising tactics and true mind control. You do not see throngs of people mindlessly lining up in front of McDonald's in order to get their daily "fix" of coffee or Big Macs in order to get some sort of pie-in-the-sky reward. Advertising draws people in to a certain place of business to shop, but that does not mean that the shopper feels in any way obligated to continue shopping there, lest they be condemned for not doing so.

    On the other hand, the WTBTS uses a methodical means of high-mind-control. Followers use their publications for study and then answer questions at the bottom of each page for which there can only be one correct answer. Those who do not answer (or at least paraphrase) directly from what is written are quickly corrected, possibly reproved. Witnesses worldwide feel compelled to attend five meetings per week for further indoctrination, under threat of shunning or expulsion if they do not do so. No such threat exists in the advertising world. A choice remains.

    I can only speak of my personal experience as a proselyzed JW. I started studying with the JWs at the age of 17 in 1974. It was during the period that the JWs were convinced that "the end" was coming in 1975, and that I had just enough time to be baptized as an assurance of survival at Armageddon. What's more important, however, is that I believed I was being handed a God-given sacred trust -- to go from house to house to find others who would also become baptized JWs. I sincerely believed that I was engaged in the work of dispensing God-given everlasting life, immortality, to others. Believing in such a spiritual commission, I do not think, is a sign of a "weak mind", but rather, a selfless heart.

    As to others who were proselytized, I think you will find that many post-1975 proselytes became JWs because the Witnesses had found them at a critical point in their lives. A mate, family member, or close friend could have recently died. Perhaps the person lived in a high-crime and/or poverty-stricken area and was influenced by their surroundings, hoping for a better future. They may have physical or mental health issues that have them frightened. Or, perhaps their life has become so monotonous that they have lost all hope for any improvement. These are the people that the WTBTS successfully preys on, offering the promise of improved health, safety, and ultimately, immortality.

    I know of no McDonald's commercial, or any other advertiser for that matter, that offers their viewers promises like that. Imagine a McDonald's commercial that said "If you eat our Big Mac and drink our coffee, you will no longer be in pain, and you will live forever." Absurd? Not by your way of thinking. You are comparing apples with oranges.

  • High Castle
    High Castle

    Notes from the POV of someone who was indoctrinated during his formative years. I, like others was drafted - we did not enlist in the 'Truth'.

    I wish to reintroduce the concept of 'corporate responsibility' to this thread. Originated by 'pistoff' in first page. Discussion as as I see it is viewing subject from wrong end of telescope. WTS is a multinational corporation with zealous 'distributors' on every inhabited continent. It should be responsible for its policies.

    It's interesting to see cigarette manufacturers mentioned. Those who 'choose' to smoke are not the only ones impacted.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Hello Jim and New Castle,

    I'm am too tired to address this but maybe tomorrow. But first help me with "POV". I'm sorry, but I do not know what that stands for. Fill me in and I will try to respond.

    Where is Spiritwalker and Phantom Stranger tonight.

    Jst2

  • High Castle
    High Castle

    I'm typing this at a public library terminal, so I need to pick up where I left off.

    As I was 'analogizing' , the decision of the smoker doesn't just impact himself but also whoever shares his airspace and if the smoker is a she, her unborn child as well.

    An interesting aspect of the libertarian faith that the original poster apparently subscribes to is that if they had their way, going to court would be the only way we have to change the behavior of corporations. According to their dogma, if say a power company is polluting your air your only recourse would be as an individual to sue them. Regulation is anathema to them. Then of course they bitch about frivolous lawsuits.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    (POV is point of view)

    The WTS should definitely be held responsible for what it does. However, I would like to point out that the analogy of corporate resposibility is a poor one from a legal standpoint, even though it may be appealing to many of us from an emotional viewpoint.

    I would also like to note that I was also "raised in the Truth". Logically, this should be irrelevant, but oh, well.

    Some posters on this thread seem to think that what is being advocated is letting the WTS have a free pass for whatever it has done. That's not correct for me personally by any means. The organization should be held accountable for its actions.

    Others seem to think that the terms "victim" and "responsible" are being used as pejoratives, as negative judgements, or as criticisms. That's also not correct. They are free of moral or ethical judgement as I use them - however, I do believe that the responsible approach is much more empowering and effective than the victim approach.

    Once I became an adult, I didn't think I needed to investigate the WTS. I didn't think I needed to find out what they really do, how they really run things, what the original biblical manuscripts really said. I didn't see any reason to check any of those things out. So what? Turns out I was wrong. I did have that responsibility, and by abdicating it, that responsibility did not magically transfer to the WTS - I was still delinquent in my responsibility as an adult. No one is assigned by the universe to come hold our hands and make sure we get across the street - whether we knew it or not, we were on our own. We got lied to - and, caveat emptor. I will freely stipulate that the WTS manipulates, influences, and pressures - that it is duplicitous, hypocritical, and often bluntly uncaring. They hold no monopoly in that regard. So's my mom.

    For us to go through our lives believing that we were externally controlled against our will, that we were victims of some "brainwashing", such belief has a very corrosive side effect - we are always waiting for the next time someone tries to do that to us again. So, we will make it very hard for us to trust anyone or anything.

    Unfortunately, this approach often gets in the way of something very useful - you discovering what emotional appeal the WTS held for you in the first place! Totally apart from the doctrine - the pretty pictures of a paradise earth, the idea that your dead relatives would be returned to you, etc., there was an emotional, gut-level appeal that the WTS held for each of us that ever believed it as adults. Only by identifying that appeal and consciously addressing it in a psychologially sound way will you have progressed past being vulnerable to these unconscious needs in the future. The reason we bought this "high-control" crap was because we got other benefits, paltry as they might seem to us now.

    And FYI, I am not a libertarian in philosophy (I am politically a liberal Dem) so calling them names really doesn't muss my hair.

    Peace, out.

  • Nosferatu
    Nosferatu
    In the USA, the legal age of an adult is 18. In other countries it is 16. At this point, by law, you have the right to make decisions without parental consent. If you decide to stay a Witness and follow their teachings. You are responsible for your actions and should not blame the Watchtower. Sorry that does not paint the cherry picture some would want it to be, but it is the way I see it and nothing presented has made me think otherwise. The buck stops right here with me, and only me.

    You seem to be stating that after the legal age (18), that we are free to make choices without someone else's approval.

    When you were ever a child, did you ever do anything behind your parents' back? That was an action you took WHEN YOU WERE UNDER THE AGE OF 18. We begin to make choices when we learn right from wrong, not when we turn 18. A category doesn't separate who makes their own decisions and who doesn't. Thus, children are included in this discussion.

    No one is holding a gun to their head. No one is forcing them to go to the Kingdom Hall. They can leave whenever they want and they choose not too. Blaming the organization for the things they have put in place, is kind of a chicken style move. We as ADULTS can stand on our own two feet at anytime and read other material and leave the organization. We are their because of fears WE accepted and made our own. We are who WE are because we let it happen.

    From infancy, we were taught that our mother gave birth to us. We were taught that apples are the color red. We were taught that the earth is round. We were also taught that Jehovah was the one holding the gun to our head.

    When we are raised in the "Truth", the very existance of Jehovah and the coming of Armageddon becomes as natural as the color of apples and the shape of the earth. We didn't choose to believe these things, we were taught to believe them. At any point in our lives, we can change these. Apples can be purple, and the earth can be flat if we choose to alter that belief. It takes action to alter something that we deeply believe, not to inherit a belief that was taught to us.

    Also, as humans, we don't stop learning after we reach the age of 18. There's a world of discovery waiting for us to embrace it. Along with this discovery comes facts that we never knew before we discovered them. I didn't choose to discover the field of electronics, it just came into my life through another person. It was applealing to me, so I decided to learn more. The JW religion is the same way. Noone here chose to seek out the JW religion (as far as I know), but for some of us, it was appealing.

    With the field of electronics, I know I can get electrocuted, and I have a few times (LOL!) However, the JWs don't warn you that they may be brainwashing you. If we aren't informed of something dangerous and we experience it, who's fault is it?

    We cannot blame ourselves for taking an interest in something. I cannot blame myself for feeling attraction for my ex. Attraction causes us to take action, not decision. Some people can make things appear very attractive. Ever go home with a beautiful woman, and you wake up next to her in the morning, and discover she really isn't all that attractive?

    Attraction is basically an emotion that causes us to take action. We decide to pay the phone bill. We NEVER decide to fall in love with a person of the opposite sex. We pay the phone bill because we know that our phone will get cut off if we don't pay it. We get married because we're in love. Feeling attraction for the JW religion is much like falling in love.

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker
    On the other hand, the WTBTS uses a methodical means of high-mind-control. Followers use their publications for study and then answer questions at the bottom of each page for which there can only be one correct answer. Those who do not answer (or at least paraphrase) directly from what is written are quickly corrected, possibly reproved. Witnesses worldwide feel compelled to attend five meetings per week for further indoctrination, under threat of shunning or expulsion if they do not do so. No such threat exists in the advertising world. A choice remains.

    Choice always remains in the religion too. If one chooses to stay in and to follow their rules, it is their choice. As I said earlier, there is no gun to their head and no threat against their life. They can study what ever they want and do not need to announce it to everyone. They can better themselves and free themselves from the religion. They choose not to. As for using the idea of, "Jehovah was the fear or gun to their head, " that was kept strong by your choice not to look into something that might have said other.

    McDonald's commercial that said "If you eat our Big Mac and drink our coffee, you will no longer be in pain, and you will live forever." Absurd? Not by your way of thinking. You are comparing apples with oranges.

    I can do this, "I had Subway for lunch!" In all seriousness though, religion has been and will always use many of the same tools the advertising world has used. I know some people who swear by cable internet, over DSL and never research the difference. Why? Because they trust their cable company and figure that they would not lie to get their business. Same with religion, people will swear by Jehovah's Witnesses and never once look into why they could be wrong. Why? Because they think their religion will tell the truth and have no reason to look elsewhere. Does this mean it is a form of mind control? No, it is a form of laziness in my opinion. The information is out there and all people have to do is look for it and when they choose not to, and make their life all around the Witnesses, it is their personal responsibility for what happens and not the society. Personal responsibly seems to be a hard pill to swallow around here. I tend to drink it up at all times and enjoy the fact that I accept blame for what I did, and do not seek to play the blame game on others or organizations. I am sorry, but it seems like the smarter form of healing.

    You seem to be stating that after the legal age (18), that we are free to make choices without someone else's approval.

    When you were ever a child, did you ever do anything behind your parents' back? That was an action you took WHEN YOU WERE UNDER THE AGE OF 18. We begin to make choices when we learn right from wrong, not when we turn 18. A category doesn't separate who makes their own decisions and who doesn't. Thus, children are included in this discussion.

    Actually, I use the legal age limit as it is a established concept that is recognized by law. When someone become self-aware of their life enough to realize they do not have to follow something they do not believe in or realize they have freedom of research and choice. Then they are personally responsible for their actions. Legally though, 18 is the legal adult age in the USA.

    Also, as humans, we don't stop learning after we reach the age of 18.

    Exactly, if we choose to keep learning. PERSONAL RESPONSIBLY! When we stop learning, we stop growing and part of being an adult is the fact that we should continue to educate ourselves and make sure we are fully aware of what are actions do in this world. if we chose to stay in a religion like Witnesses, which is not the all around bad choice people say it is, then we should be willing to accept all that that implies. I have heard many people say, "I don't care what other people say about Witnesses and what they claim, I only choose to get my information from the society." That is a personal choice!

    Feeling attraction for the JW religion is much like falling in love.

    You know, I see where you are going with that, but I do not think it fits. I think that the religion often becomes something that makes use feel important in an otherwise nameless world. There could be issues of pride, importance and even the possible vain attitude of wanting to be better then others. Love to me is an emotion from the inner heart and religion is often a philosophy that brings balance of the equation of, "what is death" and "where do I fit in, in this world." In all religion, and not just Jehovah's Witnesses, this is the passion of the religion. To bring hope and to make you feel better. The only way I can see it as a relationship. Is in the same way, that you may date a woman and hear from friends that she is a user and a slut. If you choose to ignore this and work only off that little thing called love, then you are responsible for what ever happens and should not blame the friends or the woman, when the truth is revealed at a negative time later. For something you personally choose not to research and to in essence ignore. If you felt good at the time and you enjoyed the time you had with the faults image, then maybe you should just be thankful for the faults Nirvana and ignorance and not try to write off the whole experience of a religion or relationship to some faults mind control concept. Although, love is blind and so is faith! Blame is looking to the past, anger is ruining your future and acceptance is living in the presence.

  • Joyzabel
    Joyzabel
    Blame is looking to the past, anger is ruining your future and acceptance is living in the presence.

    nice thought! I like that one. j2bf

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