I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  SanFranciscoJim

  Choice always remains in the religion too. If one chooses to stay in and to follow their rules, it is their choice. As I said earlier, there is no gun to their head and no threat against their life.

  Unlike most other religions, Jehovah's Witnesses strictly enforce following their rules with reproof, disfellowshipping, and shunning. When someone chooses to remain a part of a religion for fear they will be cut off from their families and loved ones, it no longer becomes a choice, but an ultimatum.
• 

  jst2laws

  Nosferatu,

  " When you were ever a child, did you ever do anything behind your parents' back? That was an action you took WHEN YOU WERE UNDER THE AGE OF 18. We begin to make choices when we learn right from wrong, not when we turn 18. A category doesn't separate who makes their own decisions and who doesn't. Thus, children are included in this discussion."

  I suggested excluding children form the discussion because I'm sure most children do not govern their own lives. They may have preferences in life but on the average they do not have choices. Once any individual, any age, truly has choices then they are responsible for their decisions.

  " I didn't choose to discover the field of electronics, it just came into my life through another person. It was appealing to me, so I decided to learn more. The JW religion is the same way. Noone here chose to seek out the JW religion (as far as I know), but for some of us, it was appealing......We cannot blame ourselves for taking an interest in something......We NEVER decide to fall in love with a person of the opposite sex. We pay the phone bill because we know that our phone will get cut off if we don't pay it. We get married because we're in love. Feeling attraction for the JW religion is much like falling in love.We NEVER decide to fall in love with a person of the opposite sex. We pay the phone bill because we know that our phone will get cut off if we don't pay it. We get married because we're in love. Feeling attraction for the JW religion is much like falling in love."

  I don't understand, Nos. Are you saying no one has control? Are you blaming the WT because their message attracted us? Are you saying a person in love has no choice as to whether or not they marry? You "decided" to look further into electronics because it attracted you. Most likewise "decided" to look further into the JW's because it attracted you. As said before, the WT is accountable for attracting us and giving us misinformation, maybe even negligent as for as 'full disclosure' but we had choices. And in your field of electronics you got shocked (electrocuted?). In the WT we each got 'shocked'. We, for at least a moment, had second thoughts about our choices when that happened. Many of us came out of the WT as a result of a big 'shock'. But this two shows we always had 'CONTROL'. It just took a shock to wake us up to it. STeve
• 

  Nosferatu

  Love to me is an emotion from the inner heart and religion is often a philosophy that brings balance of the equation of, "what is death" and "where do I fit in, in this world."

  The point I'm trying to make is whether it be love, religion, or even a hobby, these things give us emotional reactions. Initially, the JW religion may have been attractive to us, but now we have negative feelings associated with the JW religion. I once had attraction for my ex, but I get negative feelings associated with her.

  All in all, the two aren't too much different from each other. I was hurt by both. I was also decieved by both. The "Armageddon is coming in the 1914 generation" thing is much like the bland "I love yous" that I got from my ex. They're equally as decieving. You think, "Wow, Armageddon's around really is close" and "She really does love me!" If you really want to examine either one, you have to ignore what it is at face value, and pay attention to their actions rather than words. Only experience can teach us to do that. I don't blame either the WTS or my ex for the life experience they've given me, but I do blame them for the deception and the hurt they've caused me.

  I don't understand, Nos. Are you saying no one has control? Are you blaming the WT because their message attracted us? Are you saying a person in love has no choice as to whether or not they marry?

  I'm saying that we all lack self-control when our emotions are triggered. The WTS has a lot of ways to trigger emotions inside all different types of people. Just look at the titles & pictures of the Watchtowers & Awakes. Some people become excellent manipulators. I dated a girl who was 24 years old and divorced twice. After 3 days of dating her, she was telling me what a wonderful life we would have together. If she gets ahold of a very miserable and depressed man, he'll buy all of it and he'll become husband number three. Would it be his fault for believing this woman would make his life happier?

  People have learned how to take advantage of others' hopes for their own benefit. The Watchtower Society may have given us some good life experience, but they've managed to take money out of our pockets, and time away from our lives while we were experiencing it. It was all for their benefit, not ours. I, for one didn't voluntarily pay for this life experience, I was decieved into paying for it.
• 

  spiritwalker

  Unlike most other religions, Jehovah's Witnesses strictly enforce following their rules with reproof, disfellowshipping, and shunning. When someone chooses to remain a part of a religion for fear they will be cut off from their families and loved ones, it no longer becomes a choice, but an ultimatum.

  I know it is easy to see our former religion as a big bad guy, but in reality this statement you wrote could apply to many religions. If not all of them to some sort. As extreme goes, the Witnesses would be way down the list on religions who punish their followers who leave.

  Last night I had a legal thought. As the law goes, it does not matter what you claim your religion told you to do, you are still accountable. As a reference, see the Charles Manson murder trails and all follow up attempts by his followers to get out of prison. They all claim to be innocent and people who did something that was not of their free-will. Yet they are personally responsible for their actions.

  I am not going to, with anyone here, discuss the children side of this again. When I have made clear from the beginning that this is about adult personal responsibility and not children.
• 

  Nosferatu

  As a reference, see the Charles Manson murder trails and all follow up attempts by his followers to get out of prison.

  Time to break out the Beatles' White album!!!

  .....number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine..........number nine.....

  <Nosferatu falls over in a convulsion>
• 

  Lady Lee

  Hmmm let my mind wander for a bit here

  Ok I walk into a store and buy a product they have on the shelf. I take it home and use it for a while. Perhaps a long while. Then I discover there is a defect in the product and it is not performing the way they advertized it would. Although it seemed to work for a while the defect is now cause problems and even hurt someone who was using it.

  Who is responsible?

  OR

  I go to the store and buy a product and take it home. I am not aware there is a defect that has hurt others who have used the product. The manufacturer knows about the defect but insists it is really is users fault because they were not using the product as suggested. However the owner at no time ever misused the product but rather checked the manufacturers website continually and was always reassured they product was functioning the way it should.

  Who is responsible?
• 

  Sassy

  excellent analogy Lady Lee

  and add to that, this product will, even after you dispose of it, affect your life forever...
• 

  Lady Lee

  Oh and let's not forget the things they don't tell you about the product and the danger of using it.

  They don't have an opportunity to talk to other disgruntled product users and they use the law to hide the defects in their product.

  Despite the fact that you may have concerns about the product all other users either deny having any problems or are content with how it is working for them and claim the problem is yours

  anyone else want to add to this analogy?
• 

  observador

  Lady Lee,

  I agree with you on this. Someone must have said this on this thread already; if not, here it goes:

  The tobacco company says in the cigarrete packet: "don't smoke this trash because you will get cancer". The WT says: "smoke this trash because it's good for you. In fact, it is the ONLY trash you can smoke that will give you everlasting life".

  Got the difference? Now you understand why so many people don't blame themselves, my friend.

  Observador.
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  I will disagree with Nos's statement: "I'm saying that we all lack self-control when our emotions are triggered."

  I beleive that this is absolutely incorrect. To walk around re-acting to every person who pushes your buttons is to be a child, no matter how old you are. To govern and manage your emotional responses is a great definition of adult responsibility.

  No one has the power to "make you mad". You have the power to choose to be mad, or not. The choice in some situations is very difficult to make...and it's still your choice.

  As far as the cigarrette analogy - the people who lie to you are definitely responsible for lying to you... and who smoked the cigarrette? You're responsible for choosing to smoke. Your level of knowledge has nothing to do with whether or not you made the choice.

  Many people vote every year that are lied to by the politicians in the election. Who's responsible for how I vote? I am. If I walk around the corner to the left, and a drunk driver runs me over in a car, who's responsible for him driving drunk? He is. Who's responsible for me being there at that moment where I could get run over? I am.

  The universe is a dangerous place. I want to deal fairly with everyone. But for me to expect the universe to deal with me, at every moment, in a manner that seems fair to me, is not setting myself up to win. I have to be responsible for my actions - whether I knew everything ahead of time or not.