Hi @Konagirl - it would be fun to talk about those things but maybe we should go to a different thread?
Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)
by slimboyfat 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
peacefulpete
If everyone was neutral there would have been no war,
No, we would have self-interest and complacency......the very formula for war.
-
StephaneLaliberte
Former JWs who attempt to deny reality on this do themselves no favours. It’s a sign of being in a bubble. Not everything about JWs is bad. - Slimboyfat
Yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses were notably the only religious group that publicly opposed the Nazis. As a result, about one-third were imprisoned, and by the end of the war, around 1,500 were killed. Remarkably, they did this peacefully!
Martyrdom is a powerful story—one that inspires and captivates. The willingness to die for one’s beliefs is a narrative celebrated on monuments, war memorials, and museums throughout the Western world. People need inspiration, and what could be more courageous than a virtuous death?
However, the situation is more complex. Before the Nazi era, there were between 25,000 and 30,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany. By the end of the war, about 20,000 remained. To account for this:
- About 1,500 were killed.
- Between 1,000 and 2,000 signed a loyalty declaration to the Nazis, renouncing their faith. (historians' estimate)
- Let's estimate around 1,000 fled Germany.
This means that by the war's end, between 500 and 6,500 individuals stopped practicing and did not return to the JWs.
Consider that between 1939 and 1945, 13,000 to 20,000 Jehovah's Witnesses managed to stay free despite the Nazis systematically targeting them. This was no small feat, given their beliefs, which included not saluting Hitler, reciting loyalty oaths, or participating in holidays and political events. It’s likely that some may have compromised their beliefs to remain undetected.
So, when you say, “The overwhelming majority of JWs resisted the Nazis,” that’s not entirely accurate. The actual numbers suggest that between 75% and 94% resisted.
Interestingly, while historians have made estimates, the Jehovah's Witnesses likely know the exact figures but choose not to share them. Anything less than 99% would cast a slight shadow on their heroic narrative against the Nazis.
Again, this is not to diminish their sacrifice, which is indeed commendable. However, absolutes rarely exist. The JWs were not entirely good, just as Catholics and other religions were not entirely bad. Millions of other Christians also died in war and resistance efforts, and many suffered in various ways. Ultimately, evil was defeated through the efforts of countless soldiers and fighters. The sacrifices made by Jehovah's Witnesses are no less significant than those of others who fought for justice.
-
slimboyfat
Interestingly, while historians have made estimates, the Jehovah's Witnesses likely know the exact figures but choose not to share them.
The exact figures of what, how many “resisted”? You are trying to put an exact number something that is impossible to put an exact number on. Someone who spoke against the regime, went to jail, renounced their faith in custody, was released, later regretted that decision and rejoined. Did they resist, or not? People who broke down under torture and gave up names of their fellow believers. Did they resist, or not? People who reasoned it was proper to lie on forms to fool the Nazis and got released from prison that way. Did they resist or not? Someone who was a JW for social or family reasons but decided it wasn’t worth it when the Nazis came to power. Is that counted as a failure of JWs to resist? People who were true believers but simply couldn’t withstand the terror, or who compromised to save themselves, or their children, or others. Children who were removed from parents and were indoctrinated by the regime. All these scenarios, and many more complicated situations played out countless times. I don’t think we are in a position to judge except to say that any act of resistance was remarkable in the circumstances. We don’t need exact numbers to make the obvious observation that JWs stood out massively. We don’t need an exact figure in order to draw the same moral conclusion as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum that JWs were an “island of spiritual resistance” and that other churches have had to come to terms with the “widespread complicity” of their leadership and ordinary members.
-
StephaneLaliberte
You are trying to put an exact number something that is impossible to put an exact number on.
You're right—JWs probably don't have an exact number either, but I’m willing to bet that their margin of error is smaller than what historians have to work with.
One of the reasons I spent so much time looking into these numbers is that I was raised as a JW and repeatedly told that had I lived in Germany at that time, I would have been sent to jail and likely faced execution. And, as you seem to believe, I was told this story to reinforce the idea that JWs were the true religion because of their persecution.
However, the numbers show that the majority of JWs weren't incarcerated, and only a fraction were executed. While this doesn't diminish the heroism of those who were (in my book, they're heroes), it is a disappointment compared to what I was led to believe when I attended meetings.
JWs were an “island of spiritual resistance” and that other churches have had to come to terms with the “widespread complicity” of their leadership and ordinary members
While this statement is true, "spiritual resistance" was not what the Nazis needed at the time. As I said before, martyrdom didn’t win the war—physical resistance did.
any act of resistance was remarkable in the circumstances
That's where you and I agree. However, Jehovah's Witnesses don’t share this view. They don't believe in physical violence. In their view, those who picked up a gun to fight the Nazis were enemies of God. While the Nazis were killing millions, JWs were preaching that God would soon bring about Armageddon and kill exponentially more people who didn’t share their beliefs. Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., would all be destroyed.
Essentially, they didn’t see resisting the Nazis as a way to serve the greater good of humanity. Now, nearly 100 years later, history shows that humanity needed Catholics, Protestants, and Muslims to pick up arms and fight back because God remained idle and did nothing.
Someone who spoke against the regime, went to jail, renounced their faith in custody, was released, later regretted that decision and rejoined. Did they resist, or not?
You enumerated several scenarios in which people could have renounced their faith, even temporarily, in the face of persecution. I completely agree with you there. I'm not in a position to judge them from the comfort and safety of my home. I probably would have been the first to sign the paper and say, “Heil Hitler.” But I’d like to think I wouldn’t have given up names, that I would have helped people evade the Nazis, and that I might have blown up some train tracks.
The point is that the same can be said of millions of Catholics and Protestants who faced similar choices. Was their faith worth any less than that of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Someone who was a JW for social or family reasons but decided it wasn’t worth it when the Nazis came to power.
The same can be said for other religions. You also have to consider that, in Germany at the time, you were either Catholic or Protestant. But how many of them truly believed and practiced their faith? Those who did often lied to the Nazis and fought clandestinely.
All this to say that the JWs response to the Nazis didn't make them the true religion. It was one way to face it, but it didn't make them the one and true religion.
-
peacefulpete
My feelings of sadness are genuine. Human suffering, especially unnecessary, must always be forward in our minds. Bringing to justice those who inflict it is what keeps us civilized.
Martyrdom is a powerful story—one that inspires and captivates. The willingness to die for one’s beliefs is a narrative celebrated on monuments, war memorials, and museums throughout the Western world.
Very true. We romanticize martyrdom. My comments simply emphasize that martyrdom is not always a simple case of individual resolve to justice or love, and it is certainly not evidence of the truthfulness of their message, as this thread was about.
History is filled with martyrs for causes few of us would support.
For instance, JWs see their blood policy victims as martyrs. While we may recognize the right to self-determination, we probably don't idolize those who have died.
Humanity's best hope is education and compassionate action, not isolation and apocalypticism.
-
Longlivetherenegades
Thank you peacefulpete for those comments regarding neutrality. Just like I had discussion over the neutrality doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses over time. I have come to realise Jehovah's witnesses don't even know what they believe regarding that or purposely redefine the word to match their agenda. Neutrality means you are not here or there. Regarding government or politics of the day, they say only God's kingdom is the solution to mankind problem. It simply means they are not neutral to politics or government.
-
Longlivetherenegades
Thinking back when I was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why I believed JWs are the true religion.
Jehovah's witnesses standard formula of self righteousness and template for notorious acts and hypocrisy in their midst because true religion is based on their group thinking than what the individual does. The Bible never define true religion based on the concocted doctrines of a religious organization that came into existence?+/-150 years ago.
1. They show love among themselves by not going to war. Not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true Christianity.
They show love to one another through child abuse, wife swapping, domestic violence, wife bartering, murder, embezzlement, bribery(Mexico) party card (Malawi). Families are still divided in their midst, fights of all sorts take place. Members cannot even marry one another easily.
2. They honour Jehovah’s name by using it and giving it prominence. Again this would seem to be a very basic requirement for Christians who are said to be called out of the nations as “a people for his name”.
The name given to Jehovah's witnesses and took up by Jehovah's witnesses by those they say don't know God by name aka Babylon the great the empire of false religion. The name that already exist and know by Christians before the birth of Russell the founder of Jehovah's Witnesses.
3. They reject the post biblical teaching of the Trinity which uses language that is not found in the Bible and distances people from God by making him appear incomprehensible.
Accepting or rejecting Trinity doctrine has nothing to do with true Christians or false Christians. In reality Trinity made other Christian denominations draw closer to Jesus and by extension the Father more than Jehovah's witnesses drawing close to the Father through Jesus Christ. Jehovah's witnesses were even not to love Jesus too much or too little 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
4. They teach the truth about who Jesus is as God’s firstborn and his loyal servant.
What many other Christian denomination teach and Jehovah's witnesses still call them false Christian and religion.
5. They point to God’s kingdom as the only hope for mankind as Jesus and the early Christian’s did and don’t get involved in politics or social or protest movements.
Every other Christian denomination preached about the good tidings of God's kingdom as lasting solution to mankind's problem and they don't stay idle and sit on the fence allowing the rote that plague mankind continue without doing nothing to arrest it.
6. They preach and publish in more languages than any other group in history, fulfilling the Bible prophecy about preaching to all the earth in the last days.
Before the existence of the the religious organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, billions already knows about the last days and God's kingdom even in foreign languages. Knowing about God in your native language does not qualify as signs of a true Christians anyway.
7. Their founder Russell rediscovered basic Bible truths at a time when technology was in place to facilitate the preaching work worldwide.
Rather Russell categorically said they didn't discover Bible truth or produce new truth as it were. It cut and paste from various teachings in existence from established Christian denomination over the years.
8. Jehovah’s Witnesses have increased from a tiny number in one country to be a great crowd of worshippers from all nations of the world.
Should population be used as criteria for determining true religion even the Shia group in Iran are doing well than Jehovah's witnesses aka Jehovah's organization 🤣😂🤣😂
9. Each of the JW leaders has been just what was needed at the time for Jehovah to accomplish his purpose: Russell to recover Bible truth; Rutherford to arrange a theocratic structure and remove remaining false beliefs and practices; Knorr to organise the logistics of an unprecedented worldwide preaching campaign; Franz to provide a Bible translation that accurately conveys God’s word; the Governing Body in the final part of this system of things to prepare God’s people to come through the Great Tribulation and into the new world.
To say Jehovah need Russell, Rutherford, Knorr and the rest that follow in the last +/-150 years is to make Jesus words in Matthew 28:18-20 a lie and limit the power of God making stones to talk and convey the good news to the most distant places of the earth gathering people towards God
10. Witness teaching about humans looking forward to endless life on earth makes better sense as our biblical destiny rather than viewing this life a waiting room before we go to heaven.
The eyes have not seen what God has in store for his own people whether heaven or earth. Irrelevant as it concerns being a true religion or not.
11. Witness teaching that God’s sovereignty has been challenged and will be vindicated makes sense of human history, gives an explanation for suffering, and offers the hope that it will end permanently in the future under God’s kingdom.
+/- 8 millions survival of the end gives testament about his sovereignty against billions that will perish 😂🤣😂🤣
These are the kinds of thoughts and reasons that convinced me JWs had truth. Other groups may meet one or a few of these points to varying degrees, but only JWs meet all of them combined. What were your reasons for believing JW have the truth?
The better and quicker that everyone out there given them opportunity know that the one thing Jehovah's witnesses are very poor at doing is keeping their so called standards like the pharisees of Jesus day. The standard they use in judging others they cannot keep.
-
Longlivetherenegades
Jehovah's Witnesses pride themselves in their neutrality doctrine but don't know the consequences of James 4:17 as captured in their commentary books on James......
17 Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him
This statement by James is evidently a conclusion to what he has just said about self-assumption and vain boasting, neglecting our complete dependence upon God. Jehovah requires humility and the acknowledgment of him as the source of life and all good things; and we must recognize that ..we can accomplish nothing lasting without his favor and help. If a Christian knows this and does not act accordingly, it is a sin to him. But James' words can have broader application. Many are the parables and statements in God's Word that emphasize the seriousness of sins of omission. (Luke 12:47, 48) In Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats, the goats are condemned, not for any specific bad, illegal or immoral thing that they did, but for not helping Christ's brothers when they had opportunity. (Matt. 25:41-46; compare 1 John 3:15-17; Proverbs 3:27, 28.) The Wicked slave in the parable of the talents is not accused of doing anything forbidden, but of not using the talent committed to him as he should have done. He merely buried it and returned it without gain to his master. He did not use it for the purpose for which it was committed to him.(Matt. 25:24-27) In the illustration about the rich manman and Lazarus, the rich man is not charged with specifically doing something unlawful. Rather, he failed to use his riches in the right way.(Luke 16:19-21, 25)Close self-examination is required on the part of all Christians, for it is sometimes easier to avoid doing something that we should not do than it is to exert ourselves and do the things that we know we should do.
Again.......
Close self-examination is required on the part of all Christians, for it is sometimes easier to avoid doing something that we should not do than it is to exert ourselves and do the things that we know we should do.
Jehovah's witnesses like folding arms and claim to sit on the fence in cases where they are supposed to exert themselves and do things they know they should do but since their gods of men have decided to regiment their consciousness and conscience they sit idle.
-
lastmanstanding
Jehovah’s Witnesses supposedly being the ‘true religion’ is a bad joke. Someone supporting the idea sounds no different than a modern Nazi talking to support Hitler. And yes they also exist, in droves,
JW’s cannot even tell the truth about John the Baptist. Something that should be so simple, to take Jesus’ words for what they are, instead they twist in a narrative to support their self aggrandizement.
JW’s can preach a good preach, but they can’t practice. They say “neutrality” and then join the UN behind the curtain,
JW’s say “we are the truth”… but Jesus said “I am the… truth”. So JW’s push Jesus out of the way and bellow “LISTEN TO US”.
Figure it out people.