LATEST INSTALLMENT OF APOSTATE "DOOM"...

by You Know 93 Replies latest jw friends

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    You Know,

    You said: “But, the King of the North is said to come into the Land of Decoration and eventually actually become a squatter in the domain of spiritual Israel. That of course provokes Michael to take care of business.”

    When Michael steps in something has changed. Notice that Israel is now called a “mountain of Decoration” not a ‘land of Decoration,’ as when the King of the North first came through. You missed the point that he comes twice. (Daniel 11:41, 45) It’s the second time that he comes upon Israel’s soil that Jehovah takes action against him. That is, after he has disciplined his people (brought about when Jehovah sent the KON the first time) and poured out His blessing so that they can now be called a ‘mountain.’ Isaiah 2:2-4 describes their new condition and their new activity. Notice verse 2 uses the term ‘lifted up above.’ This indicates that true worship is now obvious to everyone and it will not take any ‘door-to-door’ activity to accomplish this. The ‘disturbing reports’ that this king hears have to do with this increased activity of a group of people that he thought he had silenced. (Revelation 13:7, 8) Ezekiel 38:11 also describes their changed condition as “those having no disturbance, dwelling in security without walls and they do not have even bar or doors.”

    You said: “The tribulation will be a time of terror and anarchy as well as a time of totalitarian tyranny.”

    You still seem to want to make the tribulation affect the entire world and it does not. It is strictly for God’s people. You are vacillating on this issue. It can’t be both. When the tribulation ends, the world will still be standing as it is, but a change will have occurred for God’s people. The rest of the world will have no problem acquiescing to the King of the North as they will willingly get the mark of the beast. That’s why it will be no tribulation for them. Jehovah’s people, though, have to fight against this or loose their standing with Him. One-third will fight, the rest will not. Therein lies the infighting within the organization. The two-thirds are the one who will say “ Who is like the wild beast and who can do battle with it?” - Revelation 13:4 They will get the mark! And they will try to induce the one-third to do so also.

    Ezekiel 36:23 makes a potent point. It says: “‘And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which you profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah’, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes.’” You notice that it is ‘before their eyes’, that is the nations, that this is going to occur. They will be onlookers to this discipline and restoration. Ezekiel 39:27 makes a similar point. It says: “When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them (Israel) before the eyes of many nations.” The discipline is for Israel and the nations will be onlookers of this discipline.

    You said: “I won’t go so far as to use the word “apostate.”

    You have to because the portion of Daniel 11:32 that you did not quote indicates such. It says: “And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.” You see two distinct groups outlined in this verse, those who are acting wickedly against the covenant and those knowing their God. Now the covenant spoken of here is the New Covenant. Who have we been taught are the only ones in this covenant? The only ones who can act wickedly against this covenant then have to be those who are in the covenant, right? I absolutely don’t agree that this teaching that this covenant is for the anointed only, but it is what the WTS teaches. So, if we make application based on what they teach, who is the finger pointing to? Yes, the so-called ‘anointed.’ In these last days, for you to acknowledge that there are ‘anointed’ ones acting wickedly against the covenant is definitely a bitter pill to swallow.

    Calling a ‘spade a spade’ it is the leadership that is being persuaded or polluted by the King of the North. He will be dealing with the leaders in order to get the rank and file in line. And they will succeed in getting two-thirds of their followers to fall in line.

    You said: “They had some big problems, apostasy in the congregations was mentioned several times.”

    True, but the emphasis is on the leaders or ‘angels’ correcting the problems immediately or Jesus would take action, which would not be a good thing for these ‘angels’ of the applicable congregations. The point is that the problems were not to be allowed to fester and infect all of the congregations as has occurred in the twentieth century. Today’s situation is akin to a ‘woman who hid leaven in three large measures of flour and everything became fermented.’ (Luke 13:21) Problems are not being taken care of because the leadership refuses to acknowledge that they exist, in fact, they are ‘hiding the leaven.’ They insist that they are in ‘a spiritual paradise,’ which is miles from the truth of the matter. Why are they not taking action to clear up the problem of pedophiles in the congregation? Are they waiting for Jesus to do their job for them? When you think about it, maybe the reason Jesus has not acted is that he is not taking the lead in this organization. The situation spoken of at Matthew 28: 20 does not apply today.

    You said: “Wars seem to always serve as a pretext for the nations to persecute Jehovah’s Witnesses.”

    Can’t be true as there were wars before there were Witnesses. Don’t confuse the next war with the great tribulation. The war is the catalyst to set up the situation that allows the tribulation to occur. You may have noticed that in Matthew chapter 24, events are pretty much in chronological order. The war definitely precedes the problems that occur within the congregations. Revelation chapter 13 also shed some light on this. Verse 3 speaks about one of the heads of the beast ‘as though slaughtered.’ This could only occur during a war. “But its deaths-stroke got healed and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.” This head of the beast would be healed when the war ended. But notice verse 5. The beast is given authority to act for forty-two months. Verses 6 and 7 show what action he took during this time period. One of them was to wage war with the holy ones, that is, the great tribulation begins. And he does silence them, as the verse shows, it was granted him to ‘conquer them.’ They remain in this deathlike state for ‘3 ½ days.’ These events occur after the war has ended.

    You Know, what kind of issue can Jehovah have with Satan, one of his creation? Satan is simply a pawn being used by Jehovah. The fact that Jehovah has already told the end of Satan shows that He is in full control.

    bjc

  • You Know
    You Know
    When Michael steps in something has changed. Notice that Israel is now called a “mountain of Decoration” not a ‘land of Decoration,’ as when the King of the North first came through. You missed the point that he comes twice.

    No, I alluded to the fact that he comes twice. I just don't think there is anything for me to gain by going into detail in this forum. That is a good observation on your part though about how the land of Decoration changes to a Mountain of Decoration. It does definitely denote a change.

    You still seem to want to make the tribulation affect the entire world and it does not. It is strictly for God’s people. You are vacillating on this issue. It can’t be both.

    I am not vacillating. The tribulation "comes in upon the entire inhabited earth." Can that be any more inclusive? No. The whole world is affected. And because Jehovah's Witnesses live in this world and support ourselves by it we, as individuals, and the Society as a printing corporation, will be impacted equally.

    When the tribulation ends, the world will still be standing as it is, but a change will have occurred for God’s people.

    Absolutely not true. When the initial phase of the tribulation is cut short on account of the chosen ones, the world will be gripped with deathly fear in expectation of the things yet to come upon them.

    The rest of the world will have no problem acquiescing to the King of the North as they will willingly get the mark of the beast. That’s why it will be no tribulation for them.

    You seem to have this idea in your mind that people are going to line up to get the mark of the beast like they would camp out to get tickets to see a U2 concert. People are not going to gladly give up their freedoms to an imperial overlord unless they are under coercion. No doubt a lot of nationalist and patriot groups and militia types will go down fighting before they accept the loss of their nation. And Jehovah's imperial tyrant will then have the disposition to annihilate any person or nation that defies it. In fact, that's what will occur. That's what the prophecy of the KON is foretelling when he says: "And he will go forth in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction."

    Jehovah’s people, though, have to fight against this or loose their standing with Him. One-third will fight, the rest will not. Therein lies the infighting within the organization.

    Yes, I agree. When the system collapses, the players holding the guns and food and gold will be in command. Even at this late date it is apparent that there is a move by the globalists to consolidate their grip upon the physical goods of the world. The Central bankers are trying to puff the stock markets up a little higher to draw the last few suckers into the game in order to allow the big players to quietly cash out of paper and buy up real oil, water, food, gold, drugs, etc. When the times comes to pull the plug on the whole thing, and Jehovah will let them know when it's time, then they will be in a position to call the shots and turn over the nation state system to a global empire similiar to Nebuchadnezzar's imperial Babylon.

    In these last days, for you to acknowledge that there are ‘anointed’ ones acting wickedly against the covenant is definitely a bitter pill to swallow.

    Not at all. We know there is an evil slave whom Christ is yet to expose and dismiss.

    Calling a ‘spade a spade’ it is the leadership that is being persuaded or polluted by the King of the North. He will be dealing with the leaders in order to get the rank and file in line. And they will succeed in getting two-thirds of their followers to fall in line.

    I don't doubt that there might be some very prominent and influential brothers who will fall away. It is not like that hasn't happened before. In fact I would expect it.

    Don’t confuse the next war with the great tribulation. The war is the catalyst to set up the situation that allows the tribulation to occur.

    It appears to me that the tribulation that suddenly comes upon the entire earth, in an instant, out of the blue, is most likely a nuclear war, which of course will vaporize the financial system along with the governments. That's no doubt how the wild beast gets the death stroke. When the trib is cut short, the beast revives under the guise of the 8th king. Then the games begin in earnest.

    You Know, what kind of issue can Jehovah have with Satan, one of his creation? Satan is simply a pawn being used by Jehovah. The fact that Jehovah has already told the end of Satan shows that He is in full control.

    Of course Jehovah is in control. But God's judgments have not been carried out against him yet. The Devil gets one last whack at proving God a liar if he can totally crush Jehovah's people, particularly his anointed ones after they are sealed and the anointing is through, during the tribulation. The demons must imagine that they can somehow pull it off, and so that's how it is that Jehovah puts hooks in Gog's jaws as it were. He sets before him this vulnerable and defenseless people and allows Satan the opportunity to roll over them with his imperial juggernaut. When he fails to break the integrity of God's loyal ones God is then fully justified in wiping him and his world into dustbin of obilvion.

    / You Know

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    This is all fascinating.

    I'm going hiking this weekend to enjoy the fresh air and get some exercise before the tribulation starts next week.

    hugs

    Joel

  • You Know
    You Know
    I'm going hiking this weekend to enjoy the fresh air and get some exercise before the tribulation starts next week.

    Hopefully, you won't molest any animals along the trail. ;o) / You Know

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    The thought of molesting animals didn't even come up into my mind. I don't consider such things.

    I can enjoy the beauty of animals just by watching them be themselves.

    hugs

    Joel

  • You Know
    You Know
    I can enjoy the beauty of animals just by watching them be themselves.

    You see there, self-control is best. / You Know

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    You Know:

    The Bible is consistent. Jehovah always "disciplines" his own people FIRST...BEFORE dealing out punishment to others.

    Jeremiah 25:29 and 1 Peter 4:17 shows this. "Judgment" always "starts" with God's Own Household. It starts there.

    It starts with Jehovah's Witnesses, first, before all the nations have to face God.

    You failed to make a comment on the citations from Ezekiel I made to you in my last post.

    These two Bible accounts I feel, are prophecies, that clearly show the "nations" are to become only, OBSERVERS of the "discipline" meted out to God's People. Only observers.

    Actually, the "nations" are to become eyewitnesses of the discipline administered by Jehovah God to His Own People. The "nations" observe and come to "Know Jehovah" by His swift "discipline" upon His Own People. They learn more about Jehovah, from what he actually "allows" to happen to them.

    Example:

    Ezekiel 36:23 makes the point. It says:

    “‘And I shall certainly sanctify my great name, which was being profaned among the nations, which you profaned in the midst of them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah’, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘when I am sanctified among you before their eyes.’”

    You notice that it is ‘before their eyes’, that is the nations, that this is going to occur. They will be onlookers to this discipline and restoration.

    Ezekiel 39:27 makes a similar point. It says:

    “When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them (Israel) before the eyes of many nations.”

    The discipline is for Israel and the nations will be onlookers of this discipline.

    bjc

  • You Know
    You Know
    The Bible is consistent. Jehovah always "disciplines" his own people FIRST...BEFORE dealing out punishment to others.

    There's no question about that. The question is: What constitutes divine punishment? From the standpoint of the world, the initial phase of the tribulation will appear as a human catastrophe, with of course a human solution, as they would naturally imagine. But, when the tribulation commences in a way and impacts Jehovah's Witnesses as we have not expected, that will be a huge humiliation and a time of great testing for the faithful.

    It starts with Jehovah's Witnesses, first, before all the nations have to face God.

    Correct. The nations will not realize that the tribulation is actually divine judgment coming upon them until well into the time of the tribulation. Jesus said though when at last they see the sign of the Son of Man then they would beat themselves in lamentation realizing that their doom is sealed.

    You failed to make a comment on the citations from Ezekiel I made to you in my last post. These two Bible accounts I feel, are prophecies, that clearly show the "nations" are to become only, OBSERVERS of the "discipline" meted out to God's
    People. Only observers.

    In a sense they will be observers of how God disciplines his people, that's because we have been so vocal about how we are the only ones who are going to breeze through the tribulation whilst ole Christendom gets whacked. When things don't go down that way it will be a tremendous reproach for us. So, when Jehovah dissolves our covenant with death during the tribulation, the nations will take note that Jehovah has seemingly abandoned us. But, BUT! They will not be mere casual bystanders to the tribulation itself, because they will be in the thick of that too. The discipline that God brings upon us will be when the system gets toasted and the Watchtower crashes as a result of that. The democratic system that has protected us and insulated us from the harsh realities of the world will be gone, along with the means of support that most of us are accoustomed to enjoying. So because we didn't see that calamity coming, that will be our discipline. And no doubt many will simply lose their minds when things get real. Even though the nations will also suffer when the system crashes, and many will evidently be victims of what is sure to be a genocidal holocaust, Scripturally, Jehovah's judgment does not really come on the world until Armageddon because the tribulation will seem as if it's a human disaster, as I have said.

    / You Know

  • bjc2012
    bjc2012

    You Know,

    The “initial phase” of the great tribulation? Where does the Bible say that the tribulation will be divided into phases? I know, you’ve got to stick to WTS doctrine or else. You appear to be a thinking man. How can you just accept this explanation without any scriptural evidence.

    Jesus states at Matthew 24:20 “Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the Sabbath day.” If his disciples have to flee and the whole world is in turmoil, where will they be able to flee? The tribulation is upon everyone according to your theory. There is no place of safety. What are they fleeing from? There would be no point to this statement unless the tribulation is directed at one group of people. Also the fact that he also said “on account of the chosen ones, these days will be cut short” shows that they are the ones directly affected. Or, are you saying that Jehovah cares nothing for the world of mankind, only JWs? That’s really an awful statement to make about the Creator and it is not true. JWs believe that they have preached a message to the world that is sufficient to condemn them. But, the message that they have preached is a very contradictory one. It is fraught with untruths, the 1914 lie being the most egregious one. Jeremiah 8:8 (NIV) states: “How can we say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” Jehovah is not going to judge the whole world based on such a message.

    And don’t you think that this people will get away before being taught a lesson to not lie in Jehovah’s name. If you think that He will take lying lightly, then you don’t really know Jehovah. JWs have put themselves onto the world scene as Jehovah’s representatives and they will bear the punishment for their iniquities. They are the ones Jehovah will call to account for this, not the world! Jeremiah 23:15 says: Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said against the prophets: “Here I am making them eat wormwood, and I will give them poisoned water to drink. For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has gone forth to all the land.”

    You said: “But, when the tribulation commences in a way and impacts Jehovah’s witnesses as we have not expected…”

    You make it sound like an accidental brush with the great tribulation. Hosea 6:1 disagrees with you. It reads: “Come, you people, and let us return to Jehovah, for he himself has torn us to pieces but he will heal us. He kept striking, but he will bind us up.” He has torn us to pieces, he kept striking? Isaiah 30:26 (a scripture you quoted in one of your post) even more potently says: “…in the day that Jehovah binds up the breakdown of his people and heals even the severe wound resulting from the STROKE BY HIM.” This is a deliberate act of punishment brought by Jehovah himself, unless you don’t really believe the scriptures and I know better than that.

    What constitutes divine punishment? It certainly isn’t “From the standpoint of the world.” Why would Jehovah execute divine punishment upon the world before he punishes his own name people for their apostasies? JUDGEMENT STARTS WITH THE HOUSE OF GOD. Have we no scriptural examples of divine punishment? Are the accounts of Jehovah sending the Assyrians and Babylonians against Israel acceptable examples? Was the entire world affected at the same time as was Israel? Were not the surrounding nations eyewitnesses of this punishment? Did not Jehovah say at Jeremiah 25:29, this: “For, look! It is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity, and should you yourselves in any way go free of punishment?” Yes, he will punish the nations, but with whom does the punishment start? With the “city upon which my name is called.” At Jeremiah 25:17, 18 where Jeremiah was told to ‘make all the nations drink to whom Jehovah had sent me’ who was named first? “Jerusalem and the cities of Judah and her kings, her princes…” God’s own people were made to drink first!

    You said: “In a sense they will be observers of how God disciplines his people…”

    In a sense? The scriptures are definitely more emphatic than you would admit. How does one observe ‘in a sense?’ Either they observe or they don’t. Ezekiel 36:6, 15 should be considered. “Therefore, prophesy concerning the soil of Israel, and you must say to the mountains and to the hills, to the streambeds and to the valleys, “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Look! I myself in my zeal and in my rage must speak, for the reason that humiliation by nations is what you have borne.””” “And I shall cause no further humiliating talk by the nations to be heard concerning you, and reproach by peoples you will bear no more, and your nations you will no more cause to stumble,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” Please explain how the nations can be humiliating and reproaching Israel if they, at the same time, are themselves being trampled?

    One final point: Ezekiel 36:3 indicates that Israel will be talked about something terribly by the nations. It says: “Therefore prophesy, and you must say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “For the reason, even for the reason that there has been a lying desolate and a snapping at you from all sides, in order for you to become a possession to the remaining ones of the nations and you continue being talked about with the tongue and there is a bad report among people.”’” Could this ‘bad report’ begin with the probe by Dateline into the pedophile problem in the organization?

    You said: “When things don’t go down that way it will be a tremendous reproach for us.”

    So true, because you are not looking at it the way Jehovah does. Your leaders are so determined that nothing bad will happen to JWs that they choose to close their eyes to the real application of the scriptures. They say: ‘everything good will happen us and everything bad will happen to them (Christendom, I guess).’ The bible will be fulfilled entirely upon JWs, the ones called by God’s personal name, or ‘the city upon which my name is called.’ You can’t make this fit Christendom.

    You said: “So, when Jehovah dissolves our covenant with death during the tribulation, the nations will take note that Jehovah has seemingly abandoned us.”

    Seemingly abandoned us? Jeremiah 7:29 says: “Shear off your uncut hair and throw it away, and upon the bare hills raise a dirge, for Jehovah has rejected and will desert the generation with which he is furious.” Isaiah 42:23-25 says: “Who has given Jacob for mere pillage, and Israel to the plunderers? Is it not Jehovah, the One against whom we have sinned, and in whose ways they did not want to walk and to whose law they did not listen? So He kept pouring out upon him rage, his anger, and the strength of war. And it kept consuming him all around, but he took no note, and it kept blazing up against him, but he would lay nothing to heart.” Stubborn people! I think that ‘seemingly’ is a bad choice of word in the face of ‘Jehovah has rejected and will desert.’ Very definitive statements!

    If Jehovah dissolves your covenant with death, have you any idea what that means? Some of you will be killed during the great tribulation in spite of what the WTS teaches.

    Are you sure that you are not a WT writer? You certainly like to use words that express opinions rather than facts.

    bjc

  • logical
    logical

    I wonder if Mars being at its closest point to earth has any significance.

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