by minimus 93 Replies latest jw friends
For an untold number of years men believed all sorts of things about the shape of the earth and the positions and movements of the earth. The fact that certain religious paradigms about the nature of God have existed for 2k yrs, and that the majority of people believed them, does not in fact prove that they are correct and absolutely truthful. They are concepts and have shown to be in need of reevaluation.
I think the cave analogy is correct and applicable.
Particles,
For an untold number of years men believed all sorts of things about the shape of the earth and the positions and movements of the earth. The fact that certain religious paradigms about the nature of God have existed for 2k yrs, and that the majority of people believed them, does not in fact prove that they are correct and absolutely truthful. They are concepts and have shown to be in need of reevaluation.
I think the cave analogy is correct and applicable.
So are you saying that in the future this question will be answered? Might I know by what process an answer will be forthcoming?
God's permission of wickedness, if he does exist, is *not* a concept, it is a reality. An example of what *is* a concept is the phrase 'God is love' as the *reality* of his creation, animal as well as man, seems to indicate otherwise. Given that God exists, as is implied in the very question asked, the reality that is by God's own definition ( and I do not limit this to the Christian God ) of required human behavior, wickedness exists and he has without an explanation that satisfies a thinking mind allowed it.
The cave analogy is *incorrect* and *not applicable* for if it does not attend to the issue at all, but suggests a path of discovery will eventually yield the answer, to someone somewhere, gifted with a deep and piercing spirituality. How will this possibly explain the structure of the Creatuion itself, a gigantic nightmare where every animal needs to kill and eat other animals just to live? My own feeling is that all paths lead to the same place for religionsists, that is, 'We do not have the answer, but you must have faith". This is a far more honest, if unsatisfactory stance than most answers suggested by believers to this question such as; free will, how dare we ask this question of God, in time you will discover the answer if you a really spiritual, the world is a much nicer place than you think, etc. etc.
The only realistic answer to this question are the ones that I have suggested above, though they are not comfrotable for believers. I see no choices outside of these and the shadows and light just obscure the issue, but do not attend to it.
Best regards - HS
Dear Hilary, Perhaps we have a basket of apples and oranges here. Your three conclusions as a believer are probably right on, especially when viewed from a western intellectual perspective. They all have in common the assumption that God, our creator, is an entity, an object separate and apart from us who acts upon us. From this angle the question "Why does God permit wickedness" is a valid one, and not "conceptual" as you say. To remain on this level or perspective view, and discuss or add to what you say, I can not do. I am not a believer in a personal God who is an entity unto itself. So, if the question, as you say, was directed to "believers" then I don't qualify, and am just a fucwit pagan mucking up the works. Perhaps I should step out of the thread here, but I won't and would like to present just a bit more if I may. First let me say: I in no way wish or desire to insult you or one-up-you here. Quite the contrary, and I appreciate your patience with me. You concluded Hillary, that the cave analogy suggests that God has kept us ignorant of the answers to the question mentioned, and there is no evidence whatsoever that turning into the light will answer the question; and it seems you feel the cave thing is a distraction from the question. From your perspective you are correct and as you say there are thousands of years of pondering to back you up and support your three conclusions. Perhaps your conclusions (which are not really answers, but more questions -- is God behind door 1, 2 or 3?) are the only available upon the wall. It's also not surprising is it that there is no evidence of the outside vista on the wall. As far as God keeping us ignorant, perhaps it's unfair to blame the Vista when it is we who give all our attention to the wall. We support and reinforce ignorance by refusing to look away or even considering that there is another way. The wall (I feel a Pink Floyd song coming on) is all we know, all there is......or is it? As I said in my first post in this thread, the external god, the one outside of us is a concept, an idea, a belief which is nothing more than a construct of the mind; which ultimately makes questions concerning such a god -- bogus. Don't take my word for it. Sit still and look within at thought. You can see beliefs. They are words which can be written down: my beliefs about God incorporate this, that, and thus & so. Notice how thoughts can be witnessed. They are in a sense separate constructs from the consciousness which sees. The mind weaves these beliefs into a god and naturally places this god out and away from us as it is made from objective cloth. This, is a conceptual god, a mental engraven image of which no two are alike. If we really really look, honestly, deeply and sincerely within, we can clearly and undeniably see that our god is but a patchwork of things we have picked up and learned along the way from friends, family and society. If we didn't have any such programming, what our beliefs be then? Now a bigger step. Follow the same path within and investigate yourself. You may find that the patchwork god is only a small section of a much bigger quilt called "me". It's all concepts which we allow to define us. The God we thought was real -- isn't, and the "me" who thought my god was real -- isn't either. It's all shadows. All that remains is pure pristine Consciousness. When the shadows are seen through, the Truth is there (here). It's always been here. It's just that attention, which is the only thing we have to give, is on the wall. Which we are free to give our attention to for thousands of years more. What Truth, really IS, can not be put into words. It's too close and yet too vast as to be beyond the limited minds perspective to be understood as things can be. It's so close it is not a thing or object. It's available right here and now to everyone. There have never been any chains or cave -- really. Nothing I say here is believable It has to be seen and realized The door's open But only here; and only now within you j
JT,
I would just like to say, you have a nice style of writing, it almost brings me there if you know what I mean LOL.
Frankie, Thank you for your nice compliment. However, it is always impossible for me to put into words what I am trying to say . If you get a sense of what is being said, then the beauty, the reality of that, is you. It's not so much about getting somewhere, or being brought somewhere. It's more about being genuinely present right here, right now, naked of the distorting filters of the mind. Time for a beer here in California. (OK, a little distortion sometimes isn't necessarily a bad thing)
j
JT, you really sound like you know what you are talking about, but in all honesty I dont have a clue what you are saying.
JT: The God we thought was real -- isn't, and the "me" who thought my god was real -- isn't either. It's all shadows. All that remains is pure pristine Consciousness.
What is that supposed to mean? That we aren't real and God isnt either? We are just conscious nothings?
JT, you really sound like you know what you are talking about, but in all honesty I don't have a clue what you are saying.
Actually Toreador, I know hardly anything at all. It is impossible to intellectually understand the significance of what I am attempting to point to or explain. So, you're not alone. What Is being referred to is beyond the phenomenal interpretations that words and thoughts represent. The ultimate Truth is not mental or intellectual. It can not be written in a book. It's infinitely vaster. It is what we really are. It is everything; and no thing. It is the raw, actual and real vibrant aliveness of this very moment, right here, right now. It can not be grasp with the limited mind. Try as you might, it slips through your fingers. It is the pristine consciousness which reads this even now and the plethora of sensations which move through it. It, is everything --yet no particular thing.
What is that supposed to mean? That we aren't real and God isn't either? We are just conscious nothings?
It looks like you may be getting it. Ideas, beliefs and mental interpretations about God and self, are not real....which includes the minds idea of "conscious nothings". The ultimate Truth, our real Identity, is not bound within the tiny confines of the tiny and fragile individual who we believe ourselves to be. When the tightly woven mental restraints of beliefs and concepts are removed or seen through, there is really nothing to define where you begin or end. You are everything, all of it.....and more importantly you are the pure wondrous and mysterious awareness in which it all moves. When there is a stepping back within, a nonjudgmental and earnest investigation and presence with this moment, there can be a clear seeing and distinction between the mind generated story we have for so long believed ourselves to be, and.... One has to see for oneself. j
you guys are too deep for me.
Thank you for attempting to answer my question JT.... Let me think on it a little more and get back to you.
Toreador.
JamesT,
The ultimate Truth is not mental or intellectual. It can not be written in a book. It's infinitely vaster. It is what we really are.
Sorry James, this reads as just another philosophy and one presenting in terms of surety rather than speculation, which is what it is. As I noted above, any answers to this question have to satisfy the demands of the victims.
What is not speculation is that by all theological definable terms 'wickedness' is permitted by Gods of all religions and though most religionists make some sort of attempt at arguing why this happens, none of the arguments attend to the issues at hand, but all seek to deflect the uncomfortable bottom line.
Best regards - HS
