Deputy dog, there is a lot more to temple work than you appear to understand. You're kinda putting words in my mouth with that statement. If someone cannot fulfill their responsibilities here on earth after doing their reasonable best God cannot just take exaltation away from them. He provides the way for everyone that deserves salvation to get it. If you tried, you'll be recompensed. A person can die after having been sngle their entire life and they could still gain exaltation. It's not quite as sterile as some people make it out to be; God is a lot more loving than that.
Ressurection question
by Sookie 108 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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dan
The Bible is the word of God (as far as it is translated correctly). I study the Bible because it has the keys to salvation. I study it because I enjoy learning about the Jewish and early Christian world, and because I want to draw closer to the Savior. We have a prophet on the earth today that reveals the word of God to us for our day, but that in no way negates the value of the Bible. It is still the word of God. I don't see any problem with this reasoning.
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ellderwho
Dan,
I question your reasonings on several points. I dont believe you can take the Bible in whole. You will have to either add to it in some form or wind up emblelishing scripture to shore up your doctrine.
This has been my point all along. You clearly stated in one of your first posts'... "Baptism is a must"
I refute that claim with the thief on the cross. He gets a promise before he dies. Hence no baptism.
Your only defense is this notion of a "vicarious action" that implys that a human can seal ones fate by his or her actions in behalf of another while here on earth. Which totally erodes Jesus words where he states emphatically "I am the way the truth the life"
Mt. 28:19 Jesus tells the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy spirit, and no where does Jesus indicate that if this isnt done, do it by proxy after they die.
Dan, Ive asked you serval times to fortify this teaching of your church and other examples of vicarious actions you claim that are in the Bible, this Bible word of God you claim to enjoy reading. If you love to read about the Jewish traditions and early Christian "ways" why cant you produce these other vicarious actions you speak of?
Your the one who threw out the challenge that "I will be seriously outmatched" by your Bible wit.
If God wanted us to "baptize the dead" he would convey this through his word.
If God wanted us in the flesh to "ordain the dead" he would have taught us how.
E.
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dan
Elderwho, he has shared it with us through his word. I'm tired of pointing out this fact only to have you ignore it: I believe he still reveals His word through prophets and Apostles. You read Paul, but you also read Moses, do you not? So I pose the same question to you. You believe in Paul, and yet you read Moses?!? Why?!?! There is no reason in this!!!! It is foolishness!!!!! Oh, the irrationality of it all!! How can it be?!?!? Boo hoo hoo!!!
Following 1 Peter 4:6, it was believed in the early church that Christ preached "to them that are dead." "For this reason," says the Lord in the "Discourse to the Apostles," "have I gone below and spoken to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to your fathers, the prophets, and preached to them, that they might enjoy their rest in heaven."89 To quote more fully a passage already cited from the Epistle of Barnabas, "He opens to us, who were enslaved by death, the doors of the temple, that is the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the?spiritual temple builded for the Lord."90 Christ is the king "of those beneath the earth," says Hippolytus, "since he also was reckoned among the dead, while he was preaching the gospel to the spirits of the saints [or holy or righteous ones]."91 The same writer says Jesus "became the evangelist of the dead, the liberator of spirits and the resurrection of those who had died."92 The idea is thus expressed by the author of the Sibylline Discourses: "He will come to Hades with tidings of hope to all the saints, and [tidings] of the end of time and the last day."93 Clement of Alexandria is thus following the accepted doctrine when he says: "Christ went down to Hades for no other purpose than to preach the gospel."94
A great favorite with the early Christians was a passage from the apocryphal Book of Sirach: "I shall go through all the regions deep beneath the earth, and I shall visit all those who sleep, and I shall enlighten all those who hope on the Lord; I shall let my teaching shine forth as a guiding light and cause it to shine afar off.95 Schmidt distrusts the claims that this was a genuine Hebrew scripture, since it is found only in Christian translations;96 but for our purpose that fact only enhances its value. Whatever its source, the ancient church received it gladly, as it did another Jewish text attributed to Jeremiah and quoted by Justin and (no less than five times) by Irenaeus: "The Lord God hath remembered his dead among those of Israel who have been laid in the place of burial, and has gone down to announce to them the tidings of his salvation."97 The Christians angrily accused the Jews of having expunged this passage from their scripture in order to damage the Christian cause, from which it would appear that the doctrine of salvation for the dead was a major issue in those early times, and a most precious possession of the church.98
In all these texts we are told that Jesus did not simply "harrow" hell and empty it with a single clap of thunder, as was later imagined. The whole emphasis in the Descensus was on the Kerygma, or the Lord's preaching of the gospel.99 He preached the gospel in the spirit world exactly as he had done in this one. Our informants insist, in fact, that Christ's mission below was simply a continuation of his earthly mission, which it resembles in detail. The spirits there join his church exactly like their mortal descendants, and by the same ordinances.
"Descending into the other world," says the old hymn, Christ "prepared a road, and led in his footsteps all those whom he shall ransom, leading them into his flock, there to become indistinguishably mingled with the rest of his sheep."100 "I made a congregation of the living in the realm of the dead," says the Lord in the Odes of Solomon, "I spake to them with living lips?and sealed my name upon their heads, because they are free and belong to me."101 Another Ode says: "I went to all my imprisoned ones to free them?and they gathered themselves together to me and were rescued; because they were members of me and I was their head."102 "He went down alone," writes Eusebius, citing a popular formula, "but mounted up again with a great host towards the Father."103 Tertullian is more specific, "Christ?did not ascend to the higher heavens until he had descended to the lower regions [lit. lower parts of the worlds), there to make the patriarchs and prophets his compotes."104 The word compos [singular form] in Tertullian always denotes "one who shares secret knowledge;"105 he made them his disciples in the other world.
Though rejected at his first coming, says Irenaeus, Christ nonetheless "gathers together his dispersed sons from the ends of the earth into the Father's sheepfold, mindful likewise of his dead ones who fell asleep before him; to them also he descends that he may awaken and save them."106 The philosopher Celsus, making fun of the strange doctrine, asks Origen: "Don't you people actually tell about him, that when he had failed to convert the people on this earth he went down to the underworld to try to convert the people down there?" It is significant that Origen answers the question, for all its mocking tone, in the affirmative: "We assert that Jesus not only converted no small number of persons while he was in the body?but also, that when he became a spirit, without the covering of the body, he dwelt among those spirits which were without bodily covering, converting such of them as were willing to Himself."107 According to this the dead not only have the gospel preached to them, but are free to accept or reject it, exactly like the living.
The resemblance between Christ's earthly and other-worldly missions leads one to conclude with Clement: "What then, does not the same economy prevail in hades, so that there, too, all the spirits might hear the gospel, repent and admit that their punishment, in the light of what they have learned, is just?"108 A much older fragment offers a parallel to this: "I have become all in all that I might [establish?] the economy of the Father? I have become an angel among angels."109 In both cases the Savior fulfills the Father's "economy" in other worlds even as he had in this one.
The parallel between the Lord's earthly and post-mortal missions is preserved even to the extent of having his coming in the spirit world heralded by John the Baptist. Origen says John "died before him, so that he might descend to the lower regions and announce [preach] his coming."110 And again: "For everywhere the witness and forerunner of Jesus is John, being born before and dying shortly before the Son of God, so that not only to those of his generation but likewise to those who lived before Christ should liberation from death be preached, and that he might everywhere prepare a people trained to receive the Lord."111 "John the Baptist died first," wrote Hippolytus, "being dispatched by Herod, that he might prepare those in hades for the gospel; he became the forerunner there, announcing even as he did on this earth, that the Savior was about to come to ransom the spirits of the saints from the hand of death."112 Even in the medieval Easter drama, the "Harrowing of Hell," the arrival of Christ in hell is heralded by John the Baptist.113
How the Dead Received Baptism
John's function in the spirit world, like the Savior's, was identical with his mission on this earth. Yet his very special mission here was to baptize. Likewise the worldly preaching of the Lord and the apostles was to prepare their hearers for baptism. It is not surprising then to read in the Pastor of Hermas, one of the most trustworthy guides to the established beliefs of the early church, that not only Christ and John but also "these Apostles, and the teachers who had proclaimed the name of the Son of God, after they had fallen asleep in [the] power and faith of the Son of God preached likewise to the dead; and they gave them the seal of the preaching. They accordingly went down with them into the water and came out again. But although they went down while they were alive and came up alive, those who had fallen asleep before them (prokekoimemenoi) went down dead, but came out again living; for it was through these that they were made alive, and learned the name of the Son of God."114 The Latin version reads: "These Apostles and teachers who had preached the name of the Son of God, when they died in possession of his faith and power, preached to those who had died before, and themselves gave them this seal. Hence [igitur] they went down into the water with them; but they who had died before went down dead, of course, but ascended living, since it was through them that they received life and knew the Son of God."115
Needless to say, this text has caused a great deal of embarrassment to interpreters, ancient and modern. The source of the trouble is obvious: there are two classes of living persons referred to, those who enjoy eternal life, and those who have not yet died on this earth. The apostles (or whoever "they" were) belonged to the latter class when they went down living to be baptized for those who had gone before; a sharp contrast is made between their state?they being alive both before and after the ordinance?and that of those who were actually dead and yet received eternal life through the ministrations of baptism. What is perfectly clear is that the apostles while they were still living performed an ordinance?the earthly ordinance of baptism in water?which concerned the welfare of those who had already died. That it was an earthly baptism which could only be performed with water is emphatically stated in the sentences immediately preceding those cited: "It is necessary, he said, for them to come up through the water in order to be made alive; for otherwise none can enter the Kingdom of God?therefore even the dead receive the seal? The seal is of course, the water."116
"I think," says Clement of Alexandria, commenting on this passage, "that it was necessary for the best of the Apostles to be imitators of their Master on the other side as well as here, that they might convert the gentile dead as he did the Hebrew."117 Elsewhere he says: "Christ visited, preached to, and baptized the just men of old, both gentiles and Jews, not only those who lived before the coming of the Lord, but also those who were before the coming of the Law?such as Abel, Noah, or any such righteous man."118 In the "Discourses to the Apostles" Jesus says:
I went down and spoke to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, your fathers, and declared unto them how they might rise, and with my right hand I gave them the baptism of life and release and forgiveness of all evil, even as I do to you here and to all who believe on me from this time on.119
In hotly denying that the Hebrew prophets and patriarchs received the seal of baptism in the other world, the Marcionites only add to our evidence that the early church did believe.120
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ellderwho
Dan,
To quote from; "Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies" Is un-impressive.
To quote more fully a passage already cited from the Epistle of Barnabas, " A great favorite with the early Christians was a passage from the apocryphal Book of Sirach: "Descending into the other world," says the old hymn, Christ "writes Eusebius, citing a popular formula, ." 103 Tertullian is more specific, " Tertullian always denotes
More church fathers
says Irenaeus, Christ nonetheless asks Origen:
You do a big cut and paste from your favorite Mormon site. Trying to make a reference to baptizing the dead and you fail. You start off with one (1) scripture from Peter about preaching to the dead not baptizing, preaching! Is this all you got? Then you state;leads one to conclude with Clement:
. Origen says John "died before him, so "John the Baptist died first," wrote Hippolytus,
Pastor of Hermas, one of the most trustworthy guides to the established beliefs of the early church, "I think," says Clement of Alexandria, commenting on this passage,I'm tired of pointing out this fact only to have you ignore it
What exactly are you pointing out? the fact that you cut an paste early church fathers that infer NOTHING about baptizing of the dead. Weak Dan, very weak. Where's the scripture that teach these "vicarious actions" you speak of. And why are you unable to use the the word of God. Talk about being tired and ingnorance, show your teachings Dan, how many times must it be asked. Looks like your relying on, as you put it "extra scriptural assumptions" to develope doctrine. E -
hooberus
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/138
28 28 And I wondered at the words of Peter?wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the a spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah?and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.
29 29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding a quickened ? , and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the b wicked ? and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;question: who are/ were the "disobedient" in verse 29?
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dan
elder, I'm trying to show that the early church fathers believed in baptism for the dead, which is what y'all asked for. I didn't cut and paste, I just copied the whole thing directly from the site.
hooberus, the disobedient where those that didn't comply with all the principles and ordinances of the gospel (those that didn't know about it fall into this category).
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Kenneson
Dan says I know nothing of what he believes. Read for yourselves what Doctrines & Covenants/Section 132 says and decide for yourselves whether polygamy is the issure here or not.
http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/132
"Was Mormon Plural Marriage a Requirement for Exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom?" Not all agree with Dan. He can debate the writer of this article if he wishes.
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ellderwho
I'm trying to show that the early church fathers believed in baptism for the dead, which is what y'all asked for.
OK lets look at what you "copied" and then you "pasted" from the Mormon site,
John's function in the spirit world, like the Savior's, was identical with his mission on this earth. Yet his very special mission here was to baptize.
The Bible does not teach this equality. Christ is the subsitute for our sins.
What is perfectly clear is that the apostles while they were still living performed an ordinance?the earthly ordinance of baptism in water?which concerned the welfare of those who had already died.
How does this concern the dead?That it was an earthly baptism which could only be performed with water is emphatically stated in the sentences immediately preceding those cited: "It is necessary, he said, for them to come up through the water in order to be made alive;
This takes the idea that one is made alive by baptism. When in fact the Bible by Jesus own words clearly teaches us we are made alive by the spirit. By your idea or beliefs in what is on this Mormon site you have to agree that flesh is giving birth to spirit by this "baptism." Thus discounting Christs' words "spirit gives birth to spirit"for otherwise none can enter the Kingdom of God?therefore even the dead receive the seal? The seal is of course, the water." 116
No where in scripture does Christ teach this idea. Again this statement defies Christs words "you must be born again of the SPIRIT"
To top all that off what you "pasted" is just comentary not Gods word, BIG difference Dan. This is the sad part of it, trading the truth for a lie.
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dan
I never said it was God's word, and you didn't ask for God's word. You asked for evidence of the existence of this doctrine in the early church, and that's exactly what this is. Please pay closer attention to what you ask for.