What 'exactly' changed in Adam when he sinned?

by gumby 297 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    Actually Danny is right except bats. Bats have an insane metabolic rate in live about 30 years. Birds do too. The reason they live longer than mice or other small animals is because they fly and the evolutionary advantages of flight is a beefy cardiovascular system and oxygen resistances. Bat cells last much longer in a pure oxygen environment than mice or humans. Immortality depends on molecular biology. It is not magic.

    If you changed a bunch of alleles you build new type of cell then build your mouse out of it. being small hyper and having cute lil faces does not automatically limit the lifespan of an animal. Take bats about 30 years. That was the same as the human life span and bats don't have any advancement in technology or society to increase their lifespan. Heck Shari Lanka has a life expectancy of 44.02 years. Who are you kidding?

    I said about birth defects if you destroy defective embryos then most hereditary illnesses can be prevented. Infantacide also helps a partice that still exist today, and people used to do it to deformed but striving infants.

    As for as perfection name how man is not perfect beside life span. We can have sex, raise children, and have no breeding season.

    And about roach not existing in the marians trench well they might as well say there are no roaches on IO. There are worms in the trench and worms up here I guess worms are perfect.

  • gumby
    gumby
    We can have sex, ,and have no breeding season.

    Are you sure your married?

    Gumby

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Danny, the ring-shape of certain organisms genetic material has nothing to do with their lifespan. Also, cancer cells DNA is the same shape as the original organism's DNA.

    You are getting confused. It's not DNA that gets frayed in it's double helix form, it's the erosion of telomeres (which are like the hard bits at the end of shoe-laces, except they are at the end of chromosomes) which after a certain number of duplication reaches the point where genetic damage can occur.

    Of the two options for life extension you mention, the lots of little switches is the likely one.

    e.g. Metabolism is not the be all and end all. Creatures of similar mass where one hibernates each winter and one does not have similar life-spans, despite the radical reduction in metabolic rate that hibernation entails.

    XQsThaiPoes

    So Danny is right about metabolic rate being linked to life span except he isn't right?

    You are BOTH right to the extent to which you've studied the subjects.

    You know more than many people but still have a lot of gaps in your understanding that lead to misconceptions. This is not bad, it just means you have to read more books, which is always a good thing.

    As regards your statement on birth defects, if you make an authoratative statement, be more careful about how you make it; I responded to vaugeness and over-statement. Correcting that (in part) when you respond to me doesn't make you right.

    As for as perfection name how man is not perfect beside life span. We can have sex, raise children, and have no breeding season.

    I've already pointed out you are using 'perfect' in a pseudoscietific way, one that to me is redolent of the Borg's use of the word. You seem to equate an E.volutionary S.table S.tatagy with perfection, without realising the 'perfection' is only within the context of the environment that the ESS fits into.

    And about roach not existing in the marians trench well they might as well say there are no roaches on IO. There are worms in the trench and worms up here I guess worms are perfect.

    Yes, you definately hold 'perfection' to be the same as an ESS. They're not, at least not in scientific terminology.

    If we can agree on terminology it'll be worthwhile discussing how 'perfect' humans are.

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    Abbadon I may be out of my league, but what in heck are you talking about not perfect in a scientific way? I don't understand.

    How come you can't label a singularity or the sun as an environment and say well it can't survive here must not be scientifically perfect?

    I assume we were talking about Adam whom was described as human, and the father of humanity hence being the exact same species. Since we know what humans are already like then making a perfect human could only mean a low mortality rate and long life span since Adam was over 900 years old supposedly when he died. Perfect humans are mortal because Jesus was perfect and was killed by normal means. I can't understand your definition when in context of the story Adam and Eve. They are too defined.

    We may have the technology to build a better being than Adam in the future. Also we could be like Adam today and have some of our dna turned off. If we could remove the mitochondria from our cells and use other means of power we may unleash a new age. Everything has a trade off so we may trade long life for decreased intelligence, prowess, size and reflexes. End up like those tiny aliens on MIB.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon
    Abbadon I may be out of my league, but what in heck are you talking about not perfect in a scientific way? I don't understand.

    Precisely. Look at the dictionary definiton;

    Now, outside of very specific terms (like 'perfect flower '), the word 'perfect' is not carelessly bandied around in scientific circles as it is not appropriate very often; even the process by which a human comes about carries with it errors that may not influence the survivability of the organism but will certainly deny it any claim to being a 'perfect' example. Look at the definiton and you will see why;

    • "being entirely without fault or defect",
    • "corresponding to an ideal standard or abstract concept",
    • "PERFECT implies the soundness and the excellence of every part, element, or quality of a thing frequently as an unattainable or theoretical state <a perfect set of teeth>."
    How come you can't label a singularity or the sun as an environment and say well it can't survive here must not be scientifically perfect?

    Because if you take something that can survive in an extreme environment (let's be a little more realistic in examples) like a deep sea volcanic vent, it will NOT be perfect somewhere else. You are using 'perfect 'as an absolute concept when there is no such thing (that's the Borg influence on your thinking patterns). Some of the most hardy organisms in the world can be killed by OXYGEN, as there isn't any where they are adapted for and it is poison to them! Thus no one would wisely use the phrase 'sceintifically perfect' as it's normally just a fanciful conceit. Perfectly adapted for it's normal environment you can say, if that's what you mean, say it!!

    I assume we were talking about Adam whom was described as human, and the father of humanity hence being the exact same species.

    Since when did being H. sapiens mean we had a sole claim on the term 'humanity'? Most of our H. sapiens characteristics (down to care for the dead and symbology) can be observed in the 'cousin' species to us like H. neanderthal.

    Since we know what humans are already like then making a perfect human could only mean a low mortality rate and long life span since Adam was over 900 years old supposedly when he died.

    Yes, well, you believing that uncritically is part of the problem here. So, are the claims made in other religious texts about extreme lifespans also true? If not, why not?

    Perfect humans are mortal because Jesus was perfect and was killed by normal means.

    So, YOUR definiton of perfect means that he can be killed? Again, cultic thinking - you're using one word to mean two different things depending on what suits your argument. Wow, there are loads of organisms that can regenerate quickly, or otherwise survive conditions like that on the cross. Are they MORE perfect then? See what I mean about you still being immersed in the loaded-language world of a cult? You are just using a word as it suits you and removing any real meaning to it as a consequence.

    I can't understand your definition when in context of the story Adam and Eve. They are too defined.

    Hold on, you're running ahead. Now, you are bandying around scientific claims and talking about humanity being descended from a single couple in the past ten thousand years.

    If you believe the Bible is literal in that way you cannot believe in much of modern science (although I am sure you use it every day - at least the Amish are consistant) as dozens if not hundreds of lines of evidence point to the fact that, in modern science's assesment, Genesis is a myth.

    So, do you believe in the modern science you are trying to make a point with, or do you believe in Genesis being literal? The two, I assure you, are incompatable views, and to switch from one to the other makes it look like you don't realise the mismatch.

    We may have the technology to build a better being than Adam in the future.

    Better for what? I thought Adam was perfect? How can perfect get better? Ultra perfect? Do you iike Star Trek? It's a popular Dub program as it allows people to have silly fantasies about pseudoscience and yet still feel faithful. Man, I came up with some really cool theories about post-Armagedon Earth when I was a Dub!! After all, what's more 'logical' than for us to fill the galaxy after we've filled the Earth? Of cousre, it was all utter nonsense.

    Also we could be like Adam today and have some of our dna turned off.

    Again, you are mixing up a bronze-age creation myth with modern science. It's easy to make claims like that. Here's one; "After the Flood happened a process of runaway evolution took place in the empty environments the animals survving the Flood had access to. This explains diversity arrising ion such a short time frame".

    In that I weld a few scietifc terms to a bronze age myth. I prove NOTHING, I just put a ribbon in the hair of a claim I want to support. The claim is still bunk, just like a pig is still a pig no matter how its hair is arranged.

    If we could remove the mitochondria from our cells and use other means of power we may unleash a new age.

    Please, please, please, get a few basic books on biology out of the library. Yes, theoretically we could replace the mitochondria in out cells. Why and to what effect and with what reprecussions I don't know; you're making Watchtower like claims as I have exemplified; you state a fact (we could replace the mitochondria in out cells) and then use it to back a claim (we may unleash a new age) when you are basically GUESSING and associating facts with claims to give your claims credence when you don't even understand your claims

    Everything has a trade off so we may trade long life for decreased intelligence, prowess, size and reflexes.

    Why? There's no reason we couldn't have eyes like eagles and two hundred-year-long lifespans, and still have brains the size and ability we have now, it's just there's never been enough evolutionary pressure to make this happen.

    End up like those tiny aliens on MIB.

    Which is a good assesment of your level of scientific knowledge... based entirely too much on the media and entirely too little on education, with the dreadful seasoning of cult psychology you need to shake off.

    Accurate knoweldge is a better idea than badly informed nonsense - even the Bible can get that one right. The choice is yours. Walk towards the light.

  • Undaunted Danny
    Undaunted Danny

    XQsThaiPoes Is right on the money! I greatly simplified my post as i thought yah'll would just jeer me as a geek.

    I could never reveal the convictions of my heart and mind as an active JW as they would always shoot me down in flames.Because they are so jealous and competitive.[James 3:15,16]

    I love this board,Thanks,and hail to all the apostate heros.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Danny, the idea of simplifying something is to simplify it, not make it wrong.

    Now instead of people jeering you as a geek (which wouldn;t of happend, don't be so 14), they simply assume you don't know what you are talking about.

    This is your fault and only you can correct the impression you have made.

    As you think XQsThaiPoes is 'right on the money' (when he is equally wrong) I am rather sceptical about what you know.

    Don't worry. I knew very little when I was a Dub. If you really have a thirst for knowledge, correct the gaps in your education (JWs like you that way, you are easier to control).

    Are you living at home still? What stops you getting out of the cult? Can I do anything to help?

    What if (JWs being a made-up religion) you are being apostate against a figment of someone's imagination? Isn't that rather pointless?

    I'm sure some JWs would think of me as an apostate; I don't! How can I 'stand against' (the meaning of apostate) something that doesn't exist?

  • Undaunted Danny
    Undaunted Danny

    Whoa! All bout me click me www.DannyHaszard.com

  • dan
    dan

    If I may be so bold, I'd like to rpopose an answer to the original question in this thread. I know people tend to drift off topic, but I like this question and would like to explain what I believe. I know it will not be shared by most because of a seemingly prevalent love of attacking everything that other people think; but I submit my feelings.

    1) Adam didn't sin. A sin is to know the difference between right and wrong and to act contrary to that knowledge. Is smoking or having pre-marital sex a sin if you don't know that it's wrong? No, of course not. Adam didn't know right from wrong until after he ate the fruit. What he did was transgress, not sin. Transgress is to break some decree that has been made, intrinsically immoral or not. eating fruit is not inherently evil, but God said that in this instance he shouldn't do it. That's a decree, not a moral law.

    2) Blood entered into Adam's body, and he became mortal. Blood is what brings us life, albeit mortal. Search the Bible for every mention of the phrases "flesh and blood," and "flesh and bones." "Flesh and bones" are always used in conjunction with a celestial body. Christ's resurrected body is referred to as having "flesh and bones." Adam refers to his wife as "flesh of my flesh, bone of my bones." Regular human beings are always described as having "flesh and blood." Mortal life is found in our blood. Immortal life is when our veins flow with the Spirit. "Quickened by the Spirit" is the phrase the scriptures use. Adam fell from immortality (temporarily) and blood entered into his veins. Death was inherited with this condition.

    3) His eyes were opened to the difference between good and evil. I like to call this the light of Christ. Think of it as your conscious. An inherent knowledge of the difference of good and evil.

    4) He could experience joy. Without experiencing pain, no one can experience joy. Both terms are relative, and do not exist independent of the other. There must be an opposition in all things. If this were not so the plans of God would have been ruined. Adam did not foil God's plan. He brought it into play. All would be a compound in one if pain and death were never experienced. I know joy because I have known pain. Living forever in the Garden of Eden is not a joyful existence, it is an existence of jejune monotony. Overcoming trials and tribulations is what helps us grow so that the blood of Christ can make us perfect.

    5) He could have children. Adam was given two comandments in the Garden of Eden. First, reproduce. Second, don't eat the fruit. He couldn't obey both. He could not know his wife while they lived in innocence in the Garden of Eden. He had to choose between the two, and he chose the more important one. If we look at both commandments we see that one was not a law, but a decree. It was not intrinsically evil, and it was a prohibition. The other was a law. We are commanded to have children, and it is intrinsically good. Breaking this commandment is not a sin of CO-mission, but of O-mission. They are two completely different commandments, and they reveal the foresight and organization of the plan of salvation. God could not be the producer of evil, but without evil man could never grow to be more like Him, so he gave us free will. With free will we are responsible for our actions. Lucifer originally wasn't evil, but he exercised his free will and rebelled against God; and thus evil is brought into existence. Now it needs to be introduced to man. Adam had free will, and he exercised it to bring evil into this world, thereby fulfilling the plan that God createed before the world was and giving us the opportunity to overcome evil that we might be more like God.

  • Undaunted Danny
    Undaunted Danny

    What changed?Who knows?

    When Steve Hassan and Ray Franz first explored the counter-cult landscape.They observed that part of the cult attraction was neatly arranged compartments with answers to life's questions.What changed in Adam???Maybe it's an enigma without an answer.

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