What 'exactly' changed in Adam when he sinned? (page 9)

Farkel

Gumby,

I finally found the links you requested.

"Original Sin For Dummies", Parts I and II:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/30027/1.ashx

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/30150/1.ashx

Farkel

seeitallclearlynow

Mackin said:

Farkel, that post was SUPREME. You have beautifully showed up the stupidity of the original sin fairy tale.

I love the way your mind works.

I second that.

gumby

I would like to post a piece from Farkel for those who didn't read the material from the link he provided.

Thanks doug,

"Original Sin For Dummies"

The Bible expects us to take as a given that sin (and thus misery, wickedness and death) came to all of us from one man. (Romans 5:12) Thus, according to the Bible, sin is "inherited." How do we inherit stuff? By means of genes, fellow dummies. Therefore, man's genes somehow became screwed up from the time of Adam's sin forward.

So, who actually screwed up man's genes? While Adam did the sinning, it would have to be God who altered his genes. There is no other explanation. He either did it directly, or indirectly by having Adam made with some sort of "mechanism" that would automatically screw up Adam's genes as soon as he sinned. If the latter is true, then Adam's body had a designed-in "booby trap" from the very beginning, waiting to trigger the moment Adam sinned. Since there can be no other conclusions, is was GOD who is DIRECTLY reponsible for mankind's inherited sinfullness and all its effects. God himself screwed up the genes and the screwed up genes are what gives us "inherited" sinfullness.

Of course, the standard argument Christians use is that "Adam had free will. He didn't HAVE to disobey God and therefore sin. It was his OWN FAULT." Fine and dandy, but why did hundreds of generations of children have to suffer as a result? Remember, it's the GENES, dummy, and God changed them. God could have easily waited to mess up the genes of the first couple until AFTER they had children. Then he could have messed up that couple's genes and let them die, while letting their children be perfect, and able to be tested on a par with the test Adam and Eve had to take. But he didn't do that? Why didn't he do that? Where is the righteousness and fairness in the way it was handled?

"The soul that is sinning--it itself will die. A son himself will bear nothing because of the error of the father, and a father himself will bear nothing because of the error of the son. Upon his own self the very righteousness of the righteous one will come to be, and upon his own self the very wickedness of a wicked one will come to be." - Ezekiel 18:20

This verse seems reasonable enough, except it is an OUTRIGHT LIE and what God did to Adam and Eve which was passed along to the rest of us, proves it is a lie.If God did not want us to ever disobey Him, he could have easily made us incapable of doing so. "Oh, but then we wouldn't have 'free will,'" some will say. Would you hear anyone complain if God said, "I'm gonna give you all the free will in the world, with one exception. In order to insure that you live in perfect health for ever and ever, I'm going to make you in incapable of disobeying my commands. But take heart, my commands are always perfect and just and ALWAYS in your best interests."

Do you think omeone would raise their hand and say, "But God I OBJECT! I WANT to be able to screw up and disobey your perfect and just commands which are always in my best interests, and then be made miserable, and then get sick and die and rot? I WANT the opportunity to have my wife be miserable when she's bearing children and I WANT to work by the sweat of my brow and have weeds grow all over the place." I don't think so. Anyway, if such a jerk did make such a demand, I'm sure God could have easily made an exception in that case. After all, he wants us to be HAPPY, doesn't he?

Adam and Eve were total dorks. Here they were absolutely perfect with every thing handed to them on a silver platter, and they had the most dorky little test to pass: don't eat fruit from only ONE tree. Tests to determine an eternity of blissful living don't get much simpler than that, folks. And they blew it.

But what about US? We're born with "inherited" sinful tendences and all sorts of other problems and infirmities, so what does God in his infinite mercy do to mitigate matters for us since we had NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR CONDITION? He gives us TONS of tests that are infinitely harder to pass than the ones the first two dorks had to pass! He gives us birth defects, vision problems, rotting teeth, poor hearts, livers, kidneys and general human misery.

And what's he going to do if we don't pass these tons of tests? He's going to KILL us, that's what.Why didn't God just forgive Adam and Eve or maybe give them a nasty case of diarrhea for a few weeks as punishment? The standard explanation is "oh, no, he couldn't do that! God's justice is PERFECT, and he would look like a liar if he did that?"

Want my answer to that one? If God is so smart, why did he open his yapper in the first place and state he would kill Adam and Eve if they ate a piece of fruit? Why didn't he think to himself, "You know, there is a distinct possibility that this couple could end up being a couple of dorks and eat of that fruit. Maybe I should anticipate that and use a little restraint on my punishments until they wise up." NO! He didn't think that way! He had to jump in there and announce the worst conceivable punishment possible. Then, to save face he had to screw us all up for the mess that he could have easily prevented in the first place.Why didn't God just kill Adam and Eve and be done with it? The standard explanation is, "Well then we wouldn't be here today, would we?" SO WHAT? We wouldn't know the difference that we wouldn't be here, so it wouldn't be any skin off of our backs. I had no problem with non-existence before I existed. Did you?

If God would have killed Adam and Eve and made another couple, perhaps the other couple would ave passed the tests, and everything would be just fine today. God may even have had to do this several times until he had himself a couple who wised up. If God would have shown some home movies of what happened to the couples before them, I think eventually a couple would have got a clue about what not to do. Did he do that? NO! God screwed up things for everyone, when he could have easily not done so. As a result of his own screw-up he had to wipe out the entire planet save for Noah and family and allow and personally do a whole bunch more killing over the generations.

But he came up with a plan to get himself and all of us out of the mess he got us into in the first place: he would kill his son.

But that's the subject of another story...

Farkel

Schizm

I've read just about everything that Farkel has ever posted, including the above. No telling what he might have accomplished had he not had his brain tied behind his back.

Farkel

Schizm,

: No telling what he might have accomplished had he not had his brain tied behind his back

I can't fight the demons. They mess people up. I do what I can do. Those freakin' demons are always trying to mess me up. I do what I can do, but I'm dealin' with powerful demon stuff here. I need a little slack. They not only tied my brain behind my back, they tied my brain behind my BUTT. Took me three weeks to find it and liberate it. Lots of demon screeming and stuff when I finally took it back. I never figured it would end up there. After all that time, it stunk some, with the butt part and stuff.

I'm not that smart, but I got my brain back. It still stunks some, though.

Farkel

Schizm

ROFLMAO!

LittleToe

LOL @ Farkel.
You've gotta be one of the funniest guys here, Doug

gumby

No telling what he might have accomplished had he not had his brain tied behind his back.

He's ALREADY accomplished a great deal.

He has helped numerous people from this site to look at things from a perspective they may have never looked at before. He has helped myself a great deal. Farkel has no more demons than the rest of us do.

Gumby

Schizm

Gumby,

Adam was equal to Jesus before he sinned. The payoff remember, was a perfect life for a perfect life.

The idea of the "ransom" is really not all that hard to comprehend. It needs to be understood that the "payoff" was life for life. The reason that just any other man could not supply the "ransom" is because there is no man that has "life". Although alive, you and I do not have "life". If we did, we wouldn't have death hanging over our heads. Adam had "life" prior to his having sinned. He did not have death hanging over his head. After he sinned he no longer had "life" ... even though he still lived for several hundred years after the fact. I'm sure that you understand the sense in which the term "life" is being used here. The ransom required that what Adam lost be repurchased. Since Adam lost "life" then there would have to be someone who had "life" to give that would serve as a ransom. Jesus could serve as the ransom because he had "life". Jesus, being sinless, was not condemned to death like we are. Prior to his sin Adam was comparable to Jesus due to the fact that Adam had "life" just as Jesus had "life". Hence, "life for life" -- THAT's the "payoff".

If Adam had needed that "eternal Juice" your refering to in order to be complete so as to live forever, then the tradeoff with Jesus was not equal as Adam lacked perfection to live eternally as Jesus.

Your way of thinking needlessly complicates the matter. At the time prior to his having sinned Adam didn't have death hanging over his head (he wasn't condemned to die). That being the case Adam had "life". Even so, he still had to *feed* his flesh with the special nutrients from the tree of life in order to maintain his health. The reason that Jesus could serve as the ransom is because he wasn't "condemned" to die. Even if there were to be a volunteer, nobody from among mankind could serve as the ransom because they are all condemned to die.

Schizm

AlanF

Define "life", Schizm.

AlanF

What 'exactly' changed in Adam when he sinned?

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