by gumby 297 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Gumby,
: Where do I find it Fark?
: If it's a fairly short essay.....why don't you paste it on this thread. I'd like to see what you have to say.
I'll try to find that stuff I wrote. I'm sure some of it is in Simon's archives. Why does it have to be "fairly short", though? If it was not "fairly short" would it be less "fairly worthy?"
Farkel
I've only taken a few moments to check out the archives, and this is all I could find in that short search:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/6243/1.ashx
However, I've written a number of things that discusses the ethical dilemmas about that story and what God did or didn't do to our genes, and it's ugly. BibleGod is found wanting on all counts. Unless some intrepid reader has saved some of that stuff and can post it in my behalf, I may never find it. Longtime readers may remember it. I wrote it, but I never save my stuff. I don't know why.
Farkel
I found this at geocities
Seeitallclearlynow,
Thanks for finding this piece of Farkels work......it was my favorite of his. I'll post it.
BTW Farkel. when I said a short essay, I only meant something not 8 pages long
History of Everything & Stuff
Doug
'In the beginning a god created the heavens and the earth.'
(Gen. 1:1; compare with John 1:1, NWT)
And so it was. Michael decided he would be an over-achiever and make EVERYTHING. He was soon to regret his decision. God had originally wanted to name Michael "George", but decided that the name "Michael" sounded much nobler.
And so Adam walked the face of the earth, naming all the animals and plants, using strange Latin words for both. Naming the fishes of the sea was rather difficult, since scuba gear had not been invented yet, but somehow, Adam managed. Then he noticed that he did not have a mate, as did all the other animals. (It took him a while to notice this. Adam was, apparently, not very bright). And God noticed the same thing, too. God said unto him, "I shall very much like to maketh a mate for you." And Adam said unto God, "Why dost thou talk in Elizabethan English?" And God rebuked Adam for his insubordination.
And so after much negotiation (God originally wanted to use an arm and an eye and a leg to make the ideal woman, but Adam would only consent to a rib, much to his chagrin later on), God created Woman from Adam. And she was a blonde. Everything goes downhill from here.
One day, Eve was walking in the Garden of Eden, and a snake speaks to her. Eve says, "this is waaaaaay kewl, fer sure! A talking snake!". The snake says, "If thou eateth from the Tree of Knowledge, thou shall be as smart as your average brunette." So Eve eateth of the Tree. Then she offers Adam some of the same fruit, and Adam, knowing that if he did not eateth thus he would no longer be able to do with Eve what he enjoyed to do. So Adam eateth of the tree, also. And he blamed Eve for everything. Typical male.
And God cast them both out of the Garden. And then they had children. The firstborn, Cain, took unto himself a wife. It was NOT, according to JW tradition, his sister. His sister had buckteeth and bad breath and disgustethed him very much. No, Cain married his Senior Prom date.
One day Cain and Abel decided to make offerings to God to thank Him for their blessings. Abel went out and found an animal peacefully grazing and murdered him as a sacrifice. He didn't even ask the poor animal for permission. Cain, on the other hand, offered up some grass clippings, since he had just mowed his lawn. God was pleased with Abel, and angry with Cain. So Cain killed Abel. Thus beginneth the ages-old argument about the humaneness of the death penalty. God, who normally invokes the death penalty for just about EVERYTHING, including not flossing your teeth, did not do so in this case. Instead, God "marked" Cain with an indelible Bingo Dauber and sent him to Detroit, and Detroit has been messed up ever since. That was a MUCH WORSE sentence than the death penalty!
And so Adam lived to be 930 years old. Michael said unto God "Lord, you said he would die in the very day he ate of the Tree of Knowledge, and yet, you let him live to be 930 years of age." The Lord God said, "Don't worry. I've got it covered. I will invent the Theory of Relativity." And Michael smiled.
After a time, some Angels became jealous of some things humans could do and they could not. "Mating" was the major one. So the rebellious Angels took on human bodies and took mates for themselves. Apparently, all of these Angels were males. It figures.
Anyway, the children of these unions were great big bullies. And God became angered, so he approached Noah and said, "Noah, I have this big problem here. I made the earth and created a very thick atmosphere around it, but sooner or later this atmosphere is going to have to fall to this earth. Because this is going to happen very soon, I would like you to make a huge boat to save your family and all the animals. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT save the Unicorns, however. I have my reasons. Besides that, the rest of the Earth is full of jerks. You can preach to them, and give them an opportunity to escape the impending flood, but they probably won't listen. Here are a few magazines. Be sure and ask for a donation. See what you can do." And Noah obeyed.
Since it takes about 36 years of preaching to gain one convert, Noah did not have enough time to convince even one person that he was telling the Truth. But because of his diligence and hard work, he was made an Elder.
So God wiped out all humans on the planet save for Noah and his family. He used "antimatter" to vaporize the dead corpses after the water subsided, so Noah and his family would not have to witness the carnage. (I SWEAR I am not making this up!) The bad Angels who materialized in human bodies went back to Heaven and were promptly sent to their rooms for a "time out."
Soon afterwards, everyone was killing EVERYONE else. (Refer to Genesis through Malachi). It got so bad that even God jumped in on the fun and wiped out a number of civilizations, but then God decided to change His ways. He gave us Jesus Christ, who only spoke only of love, compassion and forgiveness. And then they killed Him.
After Jesus, everyone was killing everyone else as usual, and God said to himself, "I need a modern-day prophet to lead the people back to the Truth." He looked down and found Charles Taze Russell and chose him as His prophet. Now he really didn't do this but Russell THOUGHT he did this, and so Russell proceeded to preach the Word. And he incorporated, too. And he printed much literature and many people read his literature. And his wife divorced him. And it cost him about six thousand bucks for that. But he kept the corporation! And life was good. And he said unto God, "God, I believe you have given we humans clues in Your Word as to when you will bring us all to salvation." And God said unto him, "Obviously, you haven't read my Word, because it sayeth 'no man knows the day or hour.' " And Russell said, "Why are you speaking in Elizabethan English," and God rebuked him.
Russell concluded that, technically speaking, God was RIGHT. But while his word said no man knows the day or hour, it did NOT say no man knows the MONTH or YEAR, and so Russell prophesied, in reverse, about the year 1799. This was an excellent choice because that year had ALREADY PASSED, and no one could prove that Jesus WASN'T walking around on the Earth SOMEWHERE. But after much searching for Jesus, including pictures on milk cartons and ads in the newspapers, alas, Jesus was nowhere to be found, and the flock grumbled.
So Russell came up with a new and novel theory: "if you read my Studies in the Scriptures you will find the Truth. But if you read the Bible and the Bible ONLY, you will find Satan and darkness." For some strange reason, the people believed him. Then he died and they put a pyramid beside him.
Emperor Joe Rutherford I succeeded him, and decided that Russell's Last Will and Testament was not really a Will at all, and therefore all of Russell's requests in that Will could be ignored. And he wrote many books, and he discovered a strange and wonderful thing. "These people will believe ANYTHING I say, no matter HOW goofy it is!" And he was right. And he wrote many goofy books. And the people bought them and believed. And he said unto them "Millions Now Living Will Never Die." And millions then living did, indeed, die. And he said unto himself, "I would like to live in a beautiful house and smoke my cigars and drink my liquor and enjoy my big cars, but how can I pull this off, since I ask my believers to sacrifice so much in my behalf?" And he received new "light!" "IF I told them that the faithful old patriarchs were going to be soon resurrected, and needed a place to stay, THEN they would be THRILLED if I had a mansion for that purpose." And thus he spake. And they believed. And Emperor Joe smoked his cigars and drank his liquor and lived in that house for many years. And the faithful old patriarchs were never resurrected. Then he died.
Then Nathan H. Knorr succeeded him. And he was lifeless and without form. Then he died.
Then Frederick "Freddie" Franz succeeded him, and everyone loved him. When he spoke the peoples trembled unto his feet, and took lots of notes. And never understood a thing he said. And neither did he, but he did it so well. And he wrotheth a lot of stuff and toldeth the people what they should and should not do. Since he had never married and had any children, he was the ideal person to tell people all about what was right and wrong in marriage and raising children. And he liked to prophesy. And he did. And people believed him. And he was wrong. And he blamed the people for being presumptuous when they acted in accordance with his prophecies.
Then his nephew Raymond Franz received some "new light" and left the sacred walls of the Watchtower and he spaketh his "new light", and many of the people listened. And the profits of the Watchtower Society plummeted and many slaves were set free. And God blessed Ray Franz.
Then Freddie died, and took his secret and vast knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and Syriac with him to the grave. Biblical Greek grammar will never be the same again without him. And God grinned.
Then Milton Henschel succeeded him, being elected in the Money Counting Room in Bethel, through a secret ritual known only to a few. And he hateth going in the field service. So he didn't. Instead, he went to Malta and stayed in a first class hotel and visited all the historical sites. And he gave the only talk he knew. And he gave it for the 1,000th time. And the people listened. And they believed.
ROFLMAO
Doug, sometimes (I SWEAR) you are a genius!!!
This line, in particular, grabbed my funny bone:
Then Nathan H. Knorr succeeded him. And he was lifeless and without form. Then he died.
I wished doug would have dated that piece. I remember when I was first questioning the bible and I read this. I laughed and cried.
Great job Fark.
Gumby
Let me have a shot at this,
There were two trees in the garden. One was the tree of 'knowledge of good and bad', and the other the 'tree of life". Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of 'knowledge of good and bad'. I gather from that, that Adam was created with a perfect body, but didn't have eternal life in him, UNTIL he passed the test. Once god saw that he could pass the test, I think he would be allowed to eat from the 'tree of life'. So, perhaps one was poisonous, and the other had properties in it that would allow him to live eternally.
The fact that they were to be 'fruitful and fill the earth', tells me that they already had the ability to have sex prior to the test. All I can think of, is that the creation of Eve and the 'test' and 'expelling', must have happened fairly close together in time.
But why god would 'test' his creation, is puzzeling. The 'tree of knowledge of good and bad', was right in the middle of the garden. And they would walk by it daily to gather other fruits. It's like telling someone you cannot do something, and holding the temptation right in front of your nose. That is something that doesn't do well with me. Any father would not do that to his children.
And satan had knowledge of properties of the trees. That is why he tempted them. What exactly changed in Adam, I don't know. All I can think of is DNA structure changes.
Puternut
Puternut,
I gather from that, that Adam was created with a perfect body, but didn't have eternal life in him, UNTIL he passed the test.
I think that the more correct way to think of it is like this: Adam would have lived for as long as he was allowed to partake of the tree of life. He was already partaking of the life-sustaining tree of life, regularly, as I've already established up above. Can it rightfully be said that Adam once had "eternal" life? Yes, I think so, but it was based on a *condition* ... the condition that he remain obedient to his Creator. Likewise, even those who succeed in passing the test at the end of the 1000-year reign of Christ will have "eternal" life (life not threatened by death due to old age), but their continued existence will always depend upon them remaining obedient to their Creator. In other words, "eternal" life is nothing more than continuous life that has no end ... UNLESS the person were to at some point lose his love of righteousness and therefore become disqualified for any further opportunity at life.
So, perhaps one was poisonous, and the other had properties in it that would allow him to live eternally.
I concur with what you say about the tree of life, but I don't believe it's necessary to think that the *other* tree's fruit was poisonous. Of course there are person's who would argue that if we assume that the one tree had life-sustaining properties in it, then to be consistent the *other* tree had to have something in its fruit that would bring on death. But, does this necessarily have to be the case? Is it not possible that the *other* tree, although a real tree, was simply placed there for the purpose of representing Adam's not being worthy of life if he ate from it?
But why god would 'test' his creation, is puzzeling.
It's a simple thing, really. There's nothing more precious than the gift of life. "Eternal" life should not be the possession of any who do not qualify for it. Would you really want to live forever in a universe that was inhabited by people who practice vile things? Those who aren't able to pass the "test" simply won't be allowed to live any longer. Though sad in a way, it's a necessary thing.
The 'tree of knowledge of good and bad', was right in the middle of the garden. And they would walk by it daily to gather other fruits. It's like telling someone you cannot do something, and holding the temptation right in front of your nose. That is something that doesn't do well with me. Any father would not do that to his children.
Personally, I would say that a Creator that would NOT require obedience from his children would be an incompetent God. It's God's purpose to have peace and tranquillity flourish throughout the universe of his making, and it's simply not possible for that to happen unless those who will inhabit that universe are WILLING to practice what is right.
What exactly changed in Adam, I don't know. All I can think of is DNA structure changes.
Absolutely nothing changed in Adam, other than the fact that his body began to degenerate due to his being shut off from having the life-sustaining fruit from the tree of life. Without the ingredients of that fruit, Adam would begin to "die".
Schizm
Absolutely nothing changed in Adam, other than the fact that his body began to degenerate due to his being shut off from having the life-sustaining fruit from the tree of life. Without the ingredients of that fruit, Adam would begin to "die".
Wow Schizm.....are you a tree hugger too, ya little knucklehead
I guess your theology at least puts a squelsh on dub beliefs. Adam was equal to Jesus before he sinned. The payoff remember, was a perfect life for a perfect life. If Adam had needed that "eternal Juice" your refering to in order to be complete so as to live forever, then the tradeoff with Jesus was not equal as Adam lacked perfection to live eternally as Jesus.
Do you really believe a damn tree existed that had special juice in it that man could live forever? Good Lord! Then what? Adam drinks the miracle juice, becomes perfect for eternal life, then passes on this eternal juice dna changer onto his offspring?
I suppose if a person can believe the bible, they can believe in a supertree that really existed. I wonder why god would put a tree there in the first place if he didn't already anticipate a test of loyalty from an opposer? Do you suppose god already knew Satan would turn evil and tempt the woman and so he then put the tree there? Gee....that would mean he must have ALSO known the outcome of the test. That would mean he knew his grand plan would flop.....for at least 6000 years and man would suffer and die. Bad plan.
Gumby
Gumby
Do you really believe a damn tree existed that had special juice in it that man could live forever?
I "damn" sure do, Gumby. *LOL*
More later.
