Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

ellderwho

Undis states, You continue to deny these Scriptures which show clearly that not every single thing that happens is the will of God:
Mark 3:35: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Does this mean that every human being on earth is Christ's brother or sister or mother?
So what you saying is that if God draws me to his Son, its my "will" that finalizes the relationship?
Ephesians 6:6: Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Doesn't that Verse show that "menpleasers" are NOT doing the will of God?
Your arguing past me! Lets understand this, Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from thebody of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Was Paul "enlightened" when he wrote this?
When Paul confesses he is not practicing what he would like to do, is that sinning Gods will?

1st Thessalonians 4:3: For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication
Doesn't that Verse show that whoever commits fornication is NOT doing the will of God?
1st Peter 4:2: That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Doesn't that Verse show that whoever "lives in the flesh to the lusts of men" is NOT doing the will of God?
1st John 2:17: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Are all men going to "abideth forever"? Are all men doing the will of God? What is your answer to that?
My answer to that is Pauls answer in Romans 7:14-25
Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Are all men "doing the will of The Father"? Are all men going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Does Paul do the will of the Father in Ro.7.????
Ellderwho said:
Then you try to blanket the issue with God wants all to be saved thinking, and Jesus died for everyone, without understanding that God Has already predestined his choosing and we can somehow effect this choice that was made before the founding of the earth.
Please answer this: How do you fit 1st Timothy Chapter 2 in with your beliefs as stated in that quote?
You have refused to answer my direct questions about 1st Timothy Chapter 2.

You have a stand alone scripture that your holding on to that in no way infers God is going to save all men. IMHO those verses indicate that grace is not bound by authorities, race, national background its universal "all men." God says he will have mercy on who he will, and harden who he wills.
So, I leave you a Scripture to think about:
1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear
1Pet.2:7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY. Choice??
LittleToe

I'll open this one out to anyone, but especially Gumby:
What do you make of Rom.1:24?
gumby

What do you make of Rom.1:24?

I know it was a letter to the Roman church which consisted mainly of gentile converts. The Minority Jews were picked on by the gentiles for still clinging to certain days and diet laws.Pauls letter was in part, to unite believers to see that salvation comes through faith.
I see verse 24 as more of a warning to new Roman converts who may had not fully cleaned up morally yet, nor fully adopted a strict monotheistic understanding of god. Paul mentions idolotry was exchanged for the god who created things.
As for "god giving them up" to these pagan practices, it's a bit vauge as to what is meant. The gist of it seems to show that Paul is saying "god abandons those who do not give him the honor as creator. He gives them up to do what they wish and knows they will suffer consequences from these sins without his intervention, and to teach them a lesson in sin.
What doesn't make sense is why the scripture makes it sound as though god makes some "special" deliberate abandonment act towards them. God lets anyone do as they please anyway and suffer for it.......so why does Paul make it sound as though this "giving them up" was some special action, at some point in time, toward a certain bunch of people?
I could see it if Paul used ancient Isreal as the ones god "gave up" in that refrence to show how god can draw his protection away from his people when they sin, as he did with Israel when they left him and they lost to the enemy during battles. He could have used this as a warning to the Romans to fly straight, but the context of Romans Chap 1 doesn't specify. If Paul is trying to say.."if you leave god, he'll leave you too"....then in WHAT WAY does he leave them? Does it mean he won't bless them and protect them like he will the godly faithfull? I would guess the latter is what he meant......but what do I know,.... I'm a damn heathen apostate bastard!
Gumwaltermartin
See what the commentaries say.
DannyBear

To me any undue attention paid to someone writing over 2,000 years ago, is just unrealistic.
Considering the fact that almost any document in written form from the era of the bible writer's time frame, is going to be considered sacred. It survived or was painstakingly copied and handed down generation to generation. It's old, we better find some meaning to it.
Kinda of like the reverence an archeologist pays to ancient cave dweller's scribbeling on the wall. Pictures have to mean something damnit. There really, really old.
If the WT&BS society can write tomes upon tomes of literature about how some little convention in Cedar Point, Oh fullfilled all sorts of prophecy. Certainly guys living in the Apostle Paul's day, could do just as well with the story of Jesus Christ.
Gumby your observation on Romans 1;24 is right on. Seems as though all religious leader's past and present cannot get away from dramatizing what they have to say, with words and expressions that indicate more than needed.
'giving them up' is just such an expression. Almost carries a threatening tone, it served the same purpose to Paul as it does today, when the WT&BS says things like, 'god's spirit was removed', 'loss of favor', 'his clean organization', blah blah, puke.
We human sure pay alot of attention to things that get really, really old. We know nothing for certain about any of it, but we are good at offering up every possible meaning behind it's mystery. The world is one big garage sale of old stuff, just depends on how much you value someone else's collection, as to how much time, effort and money you will invest in trying to aquire the item (s).
Danny
gumby

Considering the fact that almost any document in written form from the era of the bible writer's time frame, is going to be considered sacred.

LOL....how true!
Who's to say that some of these writings they found wasn't a bunch of gang minded, switchblade carrying, tattooed smeared, mohawk wearing, baggy pants looking, bunch a hoodlums who broke into peoples caves while they were away at church on sundays, and wrote graffiti all over their nice clean cave walls. All them findings are prolly nothing more than hoodlum gang slang which basically says when translated........"Cavemen rule and dinosaurs suck" or "If you want to have some animal like sex, make 3 smoke rings at high noon" or "Bill Bedrock loves Carla Cavewoman"
I wonder what the next 100 or so generations will say when they find a hunk of a porta potty buried 6 feet in the ground with writings on it that says FU*%K Y*U on it? They might think they have actually found the words that explain the meaning of civilisation...........and they would be right!!!!
Nice to read your input Dannybastard.....I liked what you had to say. People want to believe so badly they convince themselves they can find the answer if they look hard enough. When they can't find it......they subconsciously create it by attaching meaning to it with vague but halfway believable proofs. Enough proof for them. Sometimes, it doesn't take much proof if you reject reality.
Gumstein
UnDisfellowshipped

Gumby said:
I'm sure it's a safe bet to say that if "we" , had the abilities that the Bible God claims to have, not one person would ever have to die or suffer in any way.
Well, I'm not so sure.
Think about this:
If someone just absolutely DID NOT WANT to be saved, and just completely and totally rejected your offer of salvation, and then perhaps even denied that you exist, would you still force that person to be saved?
DannyBear

Gumby says;
***when translated........"Cavemen rule and dinosaurs suck" or "If you want to have some animal like sex, make 3 smoke rings at high noon" or "Bill Bedrock loves Carla Cavewoman***
Just imagine what some wannabe believer 1000yrs from now could do with David Koresh's rantings and ravings, not to mention that clan of idiots down in SanDiego, who off't themselves to catch a ride on the comet's tail. Bet they asserted all sorts of mysterious words and phrases to they'er writings, eh?
When Joseph Smith can claim to have received gold tablets from the angel moroni around the turn of the 20th century, and millions now living (sound like da judge, don't i?) buy his story, read his every word as inspired. Well you get the picture.
Thanks for your comments gumman.
Danny
gumby

UD,
Think about this:
If someone just absolutely DID NOT WANT to be saved, and just completely and totally rejected your offer of salvation, and then perhaps even denied that you exist, would you still force that person to be saved?
Well, I didn't have to think too long
I think if someone today saw a man who claimed to be the savior, raise a man from the dead, then turn some water into wine, glowed in the dark, walks on water, feeds multitudes from scraps, and make a tree fall over by touching it.......you might not have too many that wouldn't "believe."....especially if you hung around the guy for a few years and he did it all the time.
I do not think anyone would doubt god either if he would prove he exists by showing himself, or speaking, or something perform some needed miracles from heaven that convinces us he caused it.......rather than believe a book that tells me these things he said and did. Why should a heavenly father converse with his kids from a book 2000years old?
The people you speak of who refuse to believe......refuse to believe because they don't believe it. Make sense? Should a person claim believe something that they REALLY aren't convinced of? Should they be penalised by god for not believing, even when their god given thinking ability tells them they don't believe that? What if I told you your legs would fall off tomarrow if you didn't call me tonight? Should you believe me? I wouldn't expect you to without some proof from me that I can make peoples legs fall off if they don't call me.
Gumby
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:
Undis:Your "test" isn't just to get to know someone's viewpoint better at all. It's a list whereby someone can feel smug and judge another's righteousness, all tied up with a neat little bow entitled "it was the scriptures that condemned him!".
Don't do it, bro...
Seriously, my list of questions was sincere. You don't have to believe that though.
I try extremely hard to never, ever judge or condemn anyone.
Jesus Christ is THE Judge, not me or anyone else.
LittleToe said:
Young children can be "saved", and all they need is "Thank you Jesus!"
Yes, but salvation for children is a separate debate, because what about children who are not even old enough to understand anything about Jesus? I believe that God is going to save at least some of them, even though they cannot understand anything about God yet.
So, salvation for children is, IMHO, different from how salvation works for mature adults who can understand the Gospel and who are old enough to know (or at least should know) right from wrong.
God makes a distinction in the Bible between children who are old enough to know "right and wrong" and children who are not old enough.
Isaiah 7:16: For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.
Deuteronomy 1: 39: 'Moreover your little ones and your children, who you say will be victims, who today have no knowledge of good and evil, they shall go in there; to them I will give it, and they shall possess it.
The Mosaic Law also pointed out that the age of 20 was the age of being an adult.
Also, the children who were praising and worshiping Jesus and crying out "Hosanna!" were old enough to know who Jesus was, because they were crying out to Him as "The Son of David".
Romans Chapter 10 shows that for mature adult people, in order to be saved, they must:
1: Hear or read the Gospel
2: Believe with the heart that Jesus is Lord and that God raised Him up from the dead
3: Confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord
4: Call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation
Romans 10: 9-15: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the L ord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ...
UnDisfellowshipped

While I am discussing Romans Chapter 10, I thought I would comment a little more.
As far as I can tell, Deputy Dog claims that people are Saved FIRST, and THEN they repent and believe afterwards.
Is that what Romans Chapter 10 teaches?
Romans 10: 9-15: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "whoever calls on the name of the L ord shall be saved." How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ...
Also, look at Paul's famous example of Abraham:
Romans 4:1-4: W hat then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Galatians 3:2: This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Galatians 3: 5-7: Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
The Scriptures show that Abraham believed in God FIRST, and THEN God saved him and justified him.
Also, since Deputy Dog claims that people are Saved FIRST, and THEN they repent, how does he explain this Scripture?
Are people saved first, and then repent, OR do people repent first and are then saved?
Luke 13: 1-5: T here were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Freedom to Choose God

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