by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
Undisfellowshipped
You state in "My Comments on Ephesians Chapter 1:"
4: Ephesians Chapter 1 shows that people are NOT saved or sealed until AFTER they (1) hear the Gospel and (2) believe the Gospel and (3) receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts.Where does it say: "that people are NOT saved or sealed until AFTER they... receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ? D Dog
Undisfellowshipped
A little help for Acts 13
My Comments about Acts Chapter 13: 1: The Gospel was preached to "the Jews" first, and they could have believed, but instead they chose to reject the Gospel and to judge themselves as being unworthy of everlasting life. 2: To be honest, I am not yet sure what exactly Acts 13:48 means. I will continue to study and pray about that Verse.The reason the Jews "chose to reject the Gospel " was because of Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. D Dog
Also, let's take a look at Acts Chapter 8: Acts 8:9-15: But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, "This man is the great power of God." And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time. But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized. Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. Notice that Simon clearly was enlightened with the truth when he saw the miracles, and it even says that Simon "believed" what he heard. But, was Simon Born Again? Acts 8:16-25: For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, "Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." Then Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me." So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans. This shows clearly that even though Simon had been "enlightened" and had even "believed" the Gospel (but even the demons believe) and had been baptized, that he was not yet Born Again or saved, because he had not yet repented of his sins and was still "bound by iniquity."
I agree! Thanks for making my point. D Dog
I have not yet had a chance to read the latest replies, but I thought I would post a few more very important Scriptures:
John 5: 18, 34, 39-40: Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. [...] (Verse 34) Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. [...] (Vs 39-40) You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Notice, Jesus said He wanted to save the Jews who wanted to kill Him, but they were not willing to come to Him to be saved.
Undisfellowshipped
The reason they are not willing is, because being willing goes against their nature. Only God can change someone's nature. Man can't go against his own sinful nature where God is concerned.
D Dog
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Why not? Why are they not willing?
Is it a choice not to come? Or is it their nature not to come?
E
Undisfellowshipped
Why did you skip over:
John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them ; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.D Dog
Hello to Deputy Dog and Ellderwho,
I have now had the chance to read all of your latest comments and questions, and I will try to reply to them here: Ellderwho said:
So God calls Jeremiah and touches his lips with the words of the LORD sets him apart, tells him He is with him, and your looking for proof of Jeremiahs salvation?As you yourself pointed out, God gave His words into the mouths of several people who were not saved, including King Saul, Balaam, and Caiaphas to name a few. God told Samuel that He would be with Saul and would establish his kingdom (if Saul obeyed God), but that did not mean that Saul was saved, did it? Ellderwho said:
Here in Numbers24 God uses a sorcerer;
1 When Balaam saw that it pleased the LORD to bless Israel, he did not go as at other times to seek omens but he set his face toward the wilderness. 2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.
Did God save this sorcerer.One of my main points is that The Spirit of God can and does enlighten people and use people as He pleases, but that does not mean they are Born Again. Ellderwho said:
Point is God gets what he wants period!God gets what He determines. God gets what He prophesies. If God prophesies that something is going to happen, it is going to happen (for instance, Judas' damnation; the Antichrist's damnation; etc.). But does God always get what He "wants"? Not according to His Holy Word: John Chapter 5 say that Jesus WANTED to save those Jews who were trying to kill Him, but they rejected Him (and so went to Hell). Did Jesus get what He wanted there? Matthew Chapter 23 says that Jesus WANTED to save Jerusalem, but that they were not willing to be saved. Did Jesus get what He wanted there? 2nd Peter 3:9 and 1st Timothy Chapter 2 (and many other Verses) say that God DESIRES all men to be saved, but obviously not all men are saved. Does God get what He desires when not all men are saved? The Scriptures say that it is the will of God that ALL Christians live holy and sanctified lives, but not all Christians do live holy and sanctified lives. Does God get what He wants when not all Christians live holy and sanctified lives? The Bible says that God does NOT WANT any Christian to ever commit fornication, and that it is His will that Christians abstain from fornication, but obviously some Born Again people do commit this sin (such as King David, etc.) Does God get what He wants when a Christian commits a sin such as fornication? Deputy Dog said:
Where does it say: "that people are NOT saved or sealed until AFTER they... receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ?Ephesians 1: 13-14: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. That Scripture shows that Christians are saved by: (1st) Hearing the Gospel (2nd) Believing and trusting in Jesus Christ (3rd) Being sealed by the Holy Spirit Also, the following Scriptures show very clearly that The Holy Spirit comes into your heart and then saves you by causing you to be Born Again (only after a person has heard the Gospel and believed in Jesus): Titus 3:4-7: But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. John 3: 5-7: Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 1st Corinthians 6:11: And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Deputy Dog said:
UndisfellowshippedI did not intend to "skip over" that Scripture, and I will comment on it here. As always, let's look at the context: John 5:21: For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. John 5:25-29: Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. Jesus was talking about a literal resurrection from the dead in John Chapter 5. Jesus said that He would raise up anyone whom He willed to raise up from the graves. It could also be used in a figurative way to describe a person who is "dead" in sins. However, notice something important: Even though the Scriptures clearly state that all people are born in sin and are "dead" in their sins, the Scriptures also use other figurative language such as being "blind" or "asleep" to describe people who are lost. Matthew 23:16: Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides ... 2nd Corinthians 4: 4: whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. Acts 26:18: to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.' If a person is "blind", God can open His eyes can't He? The Holy Spirit can enlighten that person with the truth can't He? And once that "blind" person's has had his eyes opened by God, where does the Bible say that the person cannot choose to reject or accept Jesus at that point? In fact, the Bible, all the way through, teaches this, from Genesis through Revelation, as I have shown with dozens upon dozens of Verses in this Thread. Also, someone had stated in this Thread something like: "When did Lazarus have a choice on whether or not he wanted to be resurrected?" Well, my answer is, Lazarus made his choice after he was enlightened, when he chose to repent and believe in Jesus -- right at that moment Lazarus made his choice to be resurrected. Also, I stand by my statement that God wants everyone to make sure of the facts before they believe something, as the Bible says: Acts 17: 10-12: Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. 1st John 4:1: B eloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Proverbs 14: 15: The simple believes every word, but the prudent considers well his steps.Why did you skip over:
John 5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them ; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Also, let us examine Paul's salvation:
Acts 22:12-16: "Then a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good testimony with all the Jews who dwelt there, came to me; and he stood and said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that same hour I looked up at him. Then he said, 'The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Even after Paul had seen and heard Jesus and been blinded on the road by Him, Paul was NOT YET saved!
Notice, Ananias tells Paul: "Why are you waiting?" and then says to him: "was away your sins, calling upon the name of the Lord."
Paul had NOT YET repented and called on the Lord Jesus to be Born Again and saved.
Paul had the choice -- he could refuse to repent or he could repent.
Let's look at some of Paul's statements:
Romans 10:1-4: B rethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Paul prayed to God that ALL Israel may be saved.
If the "predestination doctrine" was true (obviously Paul would have known about it), then Paul would have known that God did NOT predestine ALL Israel to be saved, in that case, Paul would have been actually PRAYING AGAINST GOD'S WILL!
Also notice these Verses:
1st Corinthians 9: 22: to the weak I became as weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1st Corinthians 7: 16: For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
1st Corinthians 10: 32-33: Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Matthew 18:6, 14: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. [...] Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
If God has predestined everyone who is going to be saved, to be saved, then they are without a doubt going to be saved, right? No matter what, right?
Then how or why in the world would a Christian's conduct and actions toward an unsaved person cause that person to be saved or to be stumbled away to Hell?
How could someone be stumbled away from Christ by another person's actions, IF that person had been predestined to be saved? Romans14:15: Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. Romans 14:20-21: Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.
How can man destroy the works of God? How can man destroy a person for whom Christ died?
I will let the Apostle Paul's statement be my final statement for tonight:
2nd Timothy 2:24-26: And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
