Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
The text doesn't say anything about saving every Jew in Jerusalem, but you read it into the text.
You can judge for yourself what the Scripture means:
Matthew 23: 37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Luke 19:41-44: Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, saying, "If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation."
You please answer me, was Jesus weeping over a bunch of buildings and stones? Or was He weeping over all of the people of Jerusalem who COULD HAVE chosen to believe in Him?
ellderwho

Undis,
With John Chapter 5 look also at what Jesus tells the disciples in Matthew 13:9-11
9
"He who has ears, let him hear."

10
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"

11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
We all have ears, but if "it" is not given to you how will you know?
E
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
Now you're playing word games.
In case you haven't noticed being sealed by the Holy Spirit is not the same as "receive the Holy Spirit into your hearts" So I ask you again, Where (in Ephesians chapter 1) does it say: "receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ?
I will let the Scriptures answer you. The Scriptures state that the "sealing" of the Spirit is indeed the same as The Spirit coming into your heart:
"The Spirit coming into your heart" is not the same as "receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." So lets try this a 3rd time. Where (in Ephesians chapter 1) does it say: "receive the Holy Spirit into their hearts." ? I can't find the word receive!
God has not predestined what each individual Christian will do in his life.
When it comes to being a child of God or doing good, that is where we disagree.
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
You please answer me, was Jesus weeping over a bunch of buildings and stones? Or was He weeping over all of the people of Jerusalem who COULD HAVE chosen to believe in Him?
Mat 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Neither one. This is talking about the nation (Gods only Theocracy), as an instrument of Gods' grace. Not every Jews' salvation. "your house" could be talking about the temple, I suppose.
Luke19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Does seem to say a lot about buildings though.
Deputy Dog

I will say that I do not like one bit the following of man-made creeds and doctrines and teachings.
For example:
1st Corinthians 1:10-13: Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
A person could say this now-a-days:
Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Calvin," or "I am of Luther," or "I am of Billy Graham," or "I am of Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Calvin crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Calvin?
Who did I say that I was of? Are you saying you don't read any books or commentaries? Do you have a pastor that teaches you or a friend that you respect. Like it or not you're a product of someone's influence. We all carry someone's baggage.
If the Bible taught the "Predestination Doctrine", I would believe it and I would preach it.
It does teach sovereign grace (predestination) but you refuse to believe it. I believe man has a will. But it is always sinful and is not free to do or choose good. D Dog
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
It does teach sovereign grace (predestination) but you refuse to believe it. I believe man has a will. But it is always sinful and is not free to do or choose good.
I agree that all humans (left by themselves, without God's intervention) would all die in their sins and go to Hell because they are born with a sinful corrupted nature.
But I also believe that my God has the power and the will to enlighten a spiritually dead human with the truth of the Gospel and allow that person the freedom to choose to repent and believe or reject and be lost eternally.
Also, in the "Trinity" Thread, I asked Deputy Dog this question:
"Also, Deputy Dog, don't you believe that when God created Adam and Eve, He gave them freedom to choose whether or not to sin?"
Then Deputy Dog gave this answer:
My answer is, probably not! He gave them a will though, a will that is mostly not in accord with His, unless He intervenes. Then you list a bunch more verses. My thoughts on the first one (Mark 3:35) briefly stated goes something like this: It is not Gods' will that everyone is Jesus'spiritual "brother" or "sister" or "mother". Again please, one at a time!
I also think God created sin, but that's a topic for another day.
You claim that God created Adam and Eve WITHOUT the freedom to choose to obey God. In other words, you claimed that God created Adam and Eve so that they had NO CHOICE but to sin and disobey Him.
Also, you stated that it was NOT God's will that all people do God's will.
You also stated that God created sin.
Can you show me Scriptures that support ANY of those statements?
The Bible absolutely disagrees with your claim that God created sin:
1st John 2: 16-17: For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.
James 1: 13-17: Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
John 8: 44: You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
Also, can you please answer the most serious and most important question I have for you, which actually determines whether or not someone is teaching a false Gospel?
Did Jesus Christ die for all humans, or did He die only for certain humans whom God predestined to save?
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
The reason they are not willing is, because being willing goes against their nature. Only God can change someone's nature. Man can't go against his own sinful nature where God is concerned.
Ellderwho said:
Why not? Why are they not willing? Is it a choice not to come? Or is it their nature not to come?
Only God can change someone's nature. Absolutely true.
Hebrews Chapter 6 shows this perfectly:
Hebrews 6: 4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
People who have become "partakers of the Holy Spirit" and have had Him change their nature so that they could understand the Gospel CAN STILL REJECT JESUS AND FALL AWAY TO HELL IF and ONLY IF they have never been Born Again.
Who's playing word games?
What is your definition of "being sealed by The Holy Spirit"? What does that mean according to you?
The Bible also teaches that men must RECEIVE Jesus into their hearts to be saved:
John 1: 12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Colossians 2: 6-7: As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
The Holy Spirit does not come to dwell in your heart OR seal you UNTIL you receive Him.
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
Also, you stated that it was NOT God's will that all people do God's will.
Why don't you show us the quote?
D Dog
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped I am growing weary of being misquoted and you putting word in my mouth. But what is really getting old, is the way you twist scripture. I don't need you to interpret the bible for me. Believe it or not I can read English. Example, You say:
"The Bible also teaches that men must RECEIVE Jesus into their hearts to be saved:"
Then you posted these verses: John 1: 12-13: But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Colossians 2: 6-7: As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving. Neither verse uses the words "men must RECEIVE Jesus into their hearts to be saved" in fact that statement is not found anywhere in the bible. You may think it is implied, but it is not explicitly taught anywhere. It is just your opinion. Most people on this board left the watchtower because they wanted to think for themselves, they didn't like the watchtower thinking for them and they don't need you trying to take the org's place. Do you care what I think? It might help if you look at things from a different perspective once in a while. I have been a Christian for more than 35 years, that doesn't make me right about everything or anything for that matter, but I have given this topic much thought. In fact I believed much of the same things you did at one time. To have a good study, you are moving much to fast. Now think about this.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Eph 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

It doesn't say that he created everything but sin. Think about it. If Satan or the Devil created sin, that would mean that he knew something God didn't. He could come to God and say look at what I created, you didn't create all things.
Now how could God create sin ,not be guilty of the sin and not tempt anyone to sin? It's real simple! By giving the law against the sin. In Adam and Eve's case, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it..."
By giving the law, God creates sin.
New sins are being created all the time. God tells us to obey mans law, when ever possible and today it became a sin to talk on a cell phone while driving in New Jersey. Does that make the law makers in New Jersey guilty of the sin? Are they tempting anyone to sin?
D Dog
Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
What verse says this:
The Holy Spirit does not come to dwell in your heart OR seal you UNTIL you receive Him.
D Dog

Freedom to Choose God

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