New World Translation and the Greek Text of Westcott and Hort

by Dogpatch 61 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • NWT@Cutlip.Org
    [email protected]

    Earnest wrote:

    The remaining examples were all included in alternative readings which W&H considered to have "a reasonable probability of being true" and found it "impossible to decide" which of the two variant readings is certainly right. As the KIT only shows the main text of W&H it is an understandable mistake for someone to think that the translation was not following the Greek text, especially in those editions which did not show footnotes,

    [email protected] wrote:

    Please don't mention "impossible to decide" again. I have already shown it does not apply to John 14:14 and Luke 10:1. You are intelligent enough to know I was right. If you can't resist, throw it up on Matthew 12:47 -- but not on the other two. Be honest.

    NWT took a minority view on John 14:14 and Luke 10:1. I take a minority view on some passages. I see nothing inherently wrong with taking a minority view. However, when you take a minority view and try to trick others into thinking it is a majority view, that's another story. Why didn't the WT admit they were translating a slightly revised (by the WT) version of W&H? Even if the KIT Greek text is 99.9% W&H, it is not (exactly) W&H. (Plug: Watch for "Hiding the Name" about covering up the Divine Name in W&H.)

    In the yellow highlighted area above you tacitly agree with me that the WT does deceive people in KIT. In your heart you know you will never trust it fully again. When you have a serious question about "the Greek" you will look in KIT and then (just to be sure) you will check W&H to make sure the WT did not monkey with W&H. You know it. I know it.

    Hang onto that W&H, you will need it! [email protected]

  • NWT@Cutlip.Org
    [email protected]

    Earnest wrote:

    In your example of 2 Corinthians 5:5 you say "The Token of ? insert any six words you want here ? the Spirit", and suggest that the Greek word arrabona should be translated as "earnest", instead of "the token of what is to come".

    [email protected] responded:

    Absolutely untrue. You read something I did not write! I have no big problem with "token," although it is a bit anemic, palid. No one asked my opinion, but I kinda like "down payment" as a contemporary translation. For a well-educated reader I'd go with something like, "down payment (i.e. the Spirit)." For a less sophisticated group, "down payment [which is] the Spirit." I think "token" is probably OK except that tokens usually have little intrinsic value. As you correctly point out "earnest" probably no longer conveys (to most people) what Paul intended -- up front partial payment. A token (like an engagement ring) may have great value or little value. What God grants to his own is of utmost value: his Holy Spirit. That's a BIG down payment! If you have that down payment already, praise God. If you don't I would like you to. [email protected]

    --

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    As I have already explained, W&H used five markers for degree of certainty. They did not assign percentages! For this time only, and only to make a point, I will. Don't put great stock the percentage number -- make up your own, if you want. I'm trying to refute your both having "a reasonable probability of being true" statement.

    In the main text without any marks = 90%-99% sure.

    In main text with [single brackets] = 75%-89% sure.

    In main text with [[dbl brackets]] = 60%-74% sure

    In a footnote only --------------- = 40%-60% sure

    In appendix under "rejected" = ??%-39% sure

    The UBS Greek text goes one better with five ratings for the main text: None, A, B, C, & D. These are roughly: None = 90%-99%, A=80-89, B=70-79, C=60-69, D=40%-60% and less is rejected.

    In Westcott and Hort the reading "ask [me]" is less than certain, but much more than equal to dropping the "me" (according to them). They could have used [[double brackets]] with any real reservations. IF both ha[d] "a reasonable probability of being true", THEN one reading would be in the main text and the other in a footnote. Right or wrong (and, I think they are wrong sometimes), W&H had little doubt that "ME" belonged in the main text. They put it in the main text [to be translated] and NWT ignored them.

    The only valuable interpretation of the critical signs both in the text and in the critical apparatus (or footnotes) is the one given by the authors (i.e. W & H's introduction which unfortunately I cannot check at the present time and place).

    From my practice of Nestle & Aland I doubt your scale of rating is correct or even meaningful. Cf. N&A's introduction (27th ed.) p. 49*f (bold type mine):

    Square brackets in the text ([ ]) indicate that textual critics today are not completely convinced of the authenticity of the enclosed words (...) Square brackets always reflect a great degree of difficulty in determining the text.
    Double brackets in the text ([[ ]]) indicate that the enclosed words, generally of some length, are known not to be a part of the original text. These texts derive from a very early stage of the tradition, and have often played a significant role in the history of the church (cf. Jn 7,53-8,11).

    So (at least in N&A) the use of brackets indicate a high level of uncertainty (which is to be appreciated from the critical apparatus). And the use of double brackets does not imply a lesser level of certainty, but an actual certainty of unauthenticity (although the text is maintained for a different reason).

    As I said earlier, textual criticism which emerged from the quest of THE original text has long broken free from this impossible quest. But on this one I'm obviously preaching in the wilderness.

  • NWT@Cutlip.Org
    [email protected]

    What does your silence on this one mean? (1) You overlooked it? (2)You will get back to it? (3) You are unable to answer it and save face at the same time? I will take "no answer" as the last option.

    Dear Earnest,

    Apparently I missed this information in WT publications:

    W&H text published by S.C.E.Legg with a critical apparatus showing the textual support for the various readings (which was also considered by the NWT Translation Committee).

    Please advise me where the claim is made that the original NWT considered Legg. If it is in NWT, I missed it. I suppose it could be in another publication. Show me!

    Thanks for your help, [email protected]

  • justhuman
    justhuman

    I just don't know how did the WT ended up with the N.W.T. even by using the Wesctott and Hort Greek text.

    What I know is that the N.W.T of the Greek Scriptures it is an explanation of how the GB wishes the Bible text to say in order to support their teachings.

    I'm Greek and I know that what they did to the NWT it is unbielievable!!! Many Greek JW's they find NWT very bad and some they are using the old Greek Bible we used to have. In my congregation there is a sister from the 144.000 that she using the old Bible with the Cross on it and she doesn't like at all the NWT and also many old Brothers and Sisters feel the same!!!

    For sure tthose who did NWT knew NO GREEK AT ALL, plus they were disonest and LIARS

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    NWTetc,

    Did your mother never teach you not to shout ? It was rude at home and it is rude here. If you think I have missed a post of yours then show the courtesy of sending me a pm or email, as I have done for you in the past.

    The W&H text published by S.C.E.Legg is referred to in the footnotes, as is plain for everyone to see in all the scans kindly provided by TD on this thread (25-Jun-04 03:41 GMT).

    Earnest

  • Amazing1914
    Amazing1914

    Excellent Randy,

    The Society stated:

    Where we have varied from the reading of the Westcott and Hort text, our footnotes show the basis for our preferred reading.

    Actually, they do not always show such explanatory footnotes. A good example is Hebrews 11:1 regarding the definition of faith. They deviate considerably from Westcott & Hort in order to create a definition of faith that points to "future" expectations. Whereas, the definition in Westcott & Hort matches closely that found in the King James, which is faith fulfilled today. The differences go right to the root of fundamental Christian teachings. - Jim W.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Hi Amazing,

    I'm not quite sure in what way you believe NWT deviates from W&H. The Greek text is identical, namely :

    Estin de pistis elpizomenon upostasis, pragmaton elegchos ou Blepomenon

    W&H do indicate there is an alternative reading with the comma after pragmaton instead of upostasis, but that is all.

    The only substantial difference I can see between NWT and AV is in the translation of upostasis (NWT : assured expectation; AV : substance) but that has nothing to do with deviation from the Greek text.

    Earnest

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Narkissos,

    The only valuable interpretation of the critical signs both in the text and in the critical apparatus (or footnotes) is the one given by the authors (i.e. W & H's introduction which unfortunately I cannot check at the present time and place).

    From my practice of Nestle & Aland I doubt [NWTetc] scale of rating is correct or even meaningful. Cf. N&A's introduction (27th ed.) p. 49*f (bold type mine):

    Square brackets in the text ([ ]) indicate that textual critics today are not completely convinced of the authenticity of the enclosed words (...) Square brackets always reflect a great degree of difficulty in determining the text.

    You are spot on. In their Introduction they say :

    §377. Alternative readings are given wherever we do not believe the text to be certain, if the doubt affects only the choice between variations found in existing documents. It is impossible to decide that any probable variation, verbal or real, is too trivial for notice; while it would be improper to admit any variation to a place among alternative readings except on the ground of its probability. Nothing therefore is retained among alternatives which in our judgement, or on final consideration in the judgement of one of us, has no reasonable chance of being right. But no attempt is made to indicate different shades of probability beyond the assignment to the principal and the secondary places respectively: and all probable variations not in some sense orthographical are given alike, without regard to their relative importance. Nor would it be strictly true to say that the secondary or alternative readings are always less probable than the rival primary readings; for sometimes the probabilities have appeared equal or incommensurable, or the estimates which we have severally formed have not been identical. In these cases (compare § 21) precedence has been given to documentary authority as against internal evidence, and also on the whole, though not without many exceptions, to great numerical preponderance of primary documentary authority as against high but narrowly limited attestation. [page 291]

    B. 378-392. Textual notation

    §378. The notation employed for expressing these diversities of probability or authority will need a little explanation in detail. We have been anxious to avoid excessive refinement and complexity of notation: but, as variations or readings of which we felt bound to take notice are of three classes, which must on no account be confounded, we have been obliged to use corresponding means of distinction. Moreover every various reading belonging to any of these classes must by the nature of the case be either an omission of a word or words which stand in the rival text, or an insertion of a word or words absent from the rival text, or a substitution of a word or words for another word or other words employed in the rival text, or of an order of words for another order found in the rival text; and clearness requires that each of these three forms of variation should as a rule have its own mode of expression.

    §379. The first class consists of variations giving rise to alternative readings in the proper sense; that is, variations in which both readings have some good ancient authority, and each has a reasonable probability of being the true reading of the autograph. To these the fundamental and simplest notation belongs. A secondary reading consisting in the omission of words retained in the primary reading is marked by simple brackets [ ] in the text, enclosing the omitted word or words. A secondary reading consisting in the insertion of a word or words omitted in the primary reading is printed in the margin without any accompanying marks, the place of insertion being indicated by the symbol T in the text. [page 292] A secondary reading consisting in the substitution of other words for the words of the primary reading is printed in the margin without any accompanying marks, the words of the primary reading being enclosed between the symbols < > in the text. Where there are two or more secondary readings, they are separated by v. in the margin; unless they differ from each other merely by the omission or addition of words, in which case they are distinguished from each other by brackets in the margin, enclosing part or the whole of the longer reading. Occasionally one of two secondary readings differs from the primary reading by omission only, so that it can be expressed by simple brackets in the text, while the other stands as a substitution in the margin. Changes of punctuation have sometimes rendered it necessary to express a possible omission by a marginal reading rather than by brackets (Luke x 41, 42; John iii 31, 32; Rom. iii 12). Changes of accent have sometimes been likewise allowed to affect the form of alternative readings; but only when this could be done without inconvenience. A few alternative readings and punctuations are examined in the Appendix: they are indicated by Ap. attached to the marginal readings. Where there is likely to be any confusion of marginal readings answering to different but closely adjoining places in the text, they are divided by a short vertical line.

    They do talk about double brackets, but only in connection with certain specific "non-interpolations" :

    §383. The first difficulty arises from the absence of any sure criterion for distinguishing Western omissions due to incorrupt transmission, that is, Western noninterpolations, from Western omissions proper, that is, due only to capricious simplification (§ 240): whoever honestly makes the attempt will find his own judgement vacillate from time to time. On the whole it has seemed best that nothing should at present be omitted from the text itself on Western authority exclusively. Those Western omissions therefore which we can confidently accept as, properly speaking, non-interpolations are [page 295] marked by double brackets [[ ]]; while those about which there is a reasonable doubt are marked by simple brackets [ ], that is, they are not distinguished from ordinary cases of ambiguous evidence. Western omissions evidently arbitrary are of course neglected. The omission of the singular addition to Matt. xxvii 49 has been treated as a Western non-interpolation, as its early attestation was Western, though its adoption by the Syrian text has given it a wide range of apparent documentary authority. The last three chapters of St Luke's Gospel (xxii 19 f.; xxiv 3, 6, 12, 36, 40, 5I, 52) supply all the other examples.

    §384. The second consideration which has led to the adoption of an accessory notation for certain noteworthy rejected readings is of a different kind. It has been already pointed out (g 173, 239) that some of the early Western interpolations must have been introduced at a period when various forms of evangelic tradition, written or oral, were still current. There is accordingly no improbability in the supposition that early interpolations have sometimes preserved a record of words or facts not otherwise known to us. From a literary point of view such fragmentary and, as it were, casual records are entirely extraneous to the Gospels, considered as individual writings of individual authors. From a historical, and, it may be added, from a theological point of view their authority, by its very nature variable and indefinite, must always be inferior to that of the true texts of the known and canonical books; but as embodiments of ancient tradition they have a secondary value of their own which, in some cases at least, would render their unqualified exclusion from the Bible a serious loss. A rule that would for instance banish altogether from the printed [page 296] Gospels such a sentence as the first part of Luke xxiii 34 condemns itself, though the concurrence of the best texts, Latin and Egyptian as well as Greek, shews the sentence to be a later insertion. Yet single sayings or details cannot be effectually preserved for use except as parts of a continuous text: and there is no serious violation of the integrity of the proper evangelic texts in allowing them to yield a lodgement to these stray relics surviving from the apostolic or subapostolic age, provided that the accessory character of the insertions is clearly marked. Double brackets [[ ]] have therefore been adopted not only for the eight interpolations omitted by Western documents and by no other extant Pre-Syrian evidence, but also for five interpolations omitted on authority other than Western, where the omitted words appeared to be derived from an external written or unwritten source, and had likewise exceptional claims to retention in the body of the text (Matt. XYi 2 f.; Luke xxii 43 f.; xxiii 34), or as separate portions of it (Mark xvi 9-20; John vii 53--viii II).

    You will note that "no attempt is made to indicate different shades of probability beyond the assignment to the principal and the secondary places respectively", and that it is not "strictly true to say that the secondary or alternative readings are always less probable than the rival primary readings; for sometimes the probabilities have appeared equal or incommensurable". Perhaps NWTetc could indicate his source for the "five markers for degree of certainty" in W&H.

    NWTetc :

    Your discussions above on Luke 10:1 and John 14:14 ignore the fact that (a) the alternative readings are just as much a part of W&H as the main text, and (b) that alternative readings are only provided where W&H do not believe the text to be certain, and that (c) both the main text and the alternative reading have a reasonable probability of being the true reading of the autograph.

    You say :

    I'm trying to refute your both having "a reasonable probability of being true" statement.

    But that is the statement of W&H, not mine. And as you can see, your comments that "if both had a reasonable probability of being true, then one reading would be in the main text and the other in the footnote" is simply nonsense. They say

    "A secondary reading consisting in the omission of words retained in the primary reading is marked by simple brackets [ ] in the text, enclosing the omitted word or words."

    Why can you not be honest enough to accept you were mistaken, and that the NWT did follow the W&H text in the examples you provided ?

    Earnest

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    Earnest (03-Jul-04 16:41 GMT) : In your example of 2 Corinthians 5:5 you say "The Token of ? insert any six words you want here ? the Spirit", and suggest that the Greek word arrabona should be translated as "earnest", instead of "the token of what is to come".
    NWTetc (08-Jul-04 20:19 GMT) : Absolutely untrue. You read something I did not write!

    But, in your post of 27-Jun-04 08:40 GMT :

    Young's Literal Translation reads "earnest of the Spirit" at this location. So do dozens of other literal translations. Unfortunately, the NWT translator(s) must not have been competent enough to be as succinct as other literal translators!

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