Love is Post #21 Weeeeeeeeeeee!
You can't describe real LOVE you can only decribe what it isn't.
by frankiespeakin 47 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
frankiespeakin
Mark,
There's no sense in being intellectually anal about the point, if we want the real thing we have to see beyond the words anyway.
I agree that to understand love we need to go beyond words.
From the Bee Gees:
"It's only words,,
and words are all I have""....
So what if we negate all word discription,, by seeing clearly that we can only vaguely discribe it negatively as to things it is "not" would this not indicate the mind has ability to understand things far beyond words?? Call it feelings or intuitions.
-
formerout
frankie,
As you bring out, differences of opinion lead to conflict,,and that is because there is no real love,, just attachment,,possesiveness,, and seeking satisfaction of desires. Real love is "not" seeking personal satisfaction,, "not" being possesive,,"not" seeking attachment to combat our loneliness.
I'm not sure if I am getting your point or not, but if I am then I would agree with Brenda's opinion that unconditional love is not possible to sustain in a relationship. Sometimes the partner might just screw up. If I screw up, I expect my partner to point it out to me. However I may not listen properly when it is pointed out to me and an argument (i.e. possessing our differing opinions) results.
Unconditional love is a good model to hold out to reach for, but isn't it also necessary to realize that it is not always possible to attain. We are inherently imperfect after all.
Brad
-
frankiespeakin
Form,
Unconditional love is a good model to hold out to reach for, but isn't it also necessary to realize that it is not always possible to attain. We are inherently imperfect after all.
I'm not say anything against trying to be unconditional in our love.
What I'm saying is what real love not. Real love is not a force of will,,against wrong cravings or desires. Real love does not have wrong desires or wrong cravings to fight against.
-
LittleToe
Love is the carrierwave of good intent...
What I meant with my previous post is that "love" can feel like desire, etc., but that is not what it is.
-
BrendaCloutier
Frankie, if "real love" is not a force of will, how can "god" be "love" if "god" is the "ultimate being". From god, all else sprang forth, and (I believe) god powers all things - many would say through holy spirit. Power is a willed force in the context of creation or creative evolution - evolution with intent - and power is a willed force of being. Hence love is a willed force. "I Love" "To Love" "To Be Loved" "I Am Loved". I do not believe it is a noun, but in the human sense requires action.
However, in unconditional love, one accepts that the other "is" without condition. It still requires acknowledgement. By acknowledging the other "is" we are willing a response to the other.
Shift of thought.
By solely defining love by what it isn't is contrary to what love is. Case in point: When dating I began to know what I didn't want in a partner. But I kept finding people who fit what I didn't want. A sub-conscious will. So I changed my mindset to "what do I really want in a partner?" Instead of concentrating on the negative, I developed the possitive and concentrated on that.
The same goes for my life today. I know what I don't want, but greater still I know what I do want and concentrate on that. This includes people, places, things, attitudes. It makes for a more possitive outlook and in turn I'm more apt to find what I want, instead of finding what I don't want. To place my goals and emphasis on the possitive in myself and others helps make me a more loving person.
Hug, love and peace
Brenda
-
frankiespeakin
Brenda,
I going to try explaining but it is hard to get right to the point but I will try perhaps I will fumble so bare with me because after all,, I am getting a little over the hill.
Frankie, if "real love" is not a force of will, how can "god" be "love" if "god" is the "ultimate being". From god, all else sprang forth, and (I believe) god powers all things - many would say through holy spirit.
Well first off get rid of ridged beleive systems,,be more flexiable,,but don't do it because I told you to but,, do it to find out what is true. Ask yourself is a ridged beleif system able to answer my questions??
Power is a willed force in the context of creation or creative evolution - evolution with intent - and power is a willed force of being. Hence love is a willed force. "I Love" "To Love" "To Be Loved" "I Am Loved". I do not believe it is a noun, but in the human sense requires action.
I think you are pretty close here but get farther away from truth in parts b,c,.
However, in unconditional love, one accepts that the other "is" without condition. It still requires acknowledgement. By acknowledging the other "is" we are willing a response to the other.
But what if there is no "other" what if we are all "one" and this term other is just the product of thought? Selfish egoistic thought which preserves its identity? What would happen if love forced itself on our thoughts and took over. What would life be like or would we just melt like wax from a candle?Which BTW I don't see love ever doing because love is not a force of will. Look a force of will and love are 2 different things,, a force of will that causes one to be "loving"(concepts again) is not love,, now the "what ever" that caused the force of will now maybe that could be love,,but I have no way of know yet.
Shift of thought.
By solely defining love by what it isn't is contrary to what love is. Case in point: When dating I began to know what I didn't want in a partner. But I kept finding people who fit what I didn't want. A sub-conscious will. So I changed my mindset to "what do I really want in a partner?" Instead of concentrating on the negative, I developed the possitive and concentrated on that.
You make this statement quite authoritively :"By solely defining love by what it isn't is contrary to what love is." How do you know for sure,,wouldn't an I think be better than speak with authority? That way you can free the mind to change easier.
So are you saying you willed the future? Well I don't know perhaps a person could but it fails to make your point in the begining sentence.
-
Descender
In your opinion, Frankie, considering human nature has anyone ever achieved this real love that you speak of? Have you? If not, how do you know that your idea of real love actually exists?
-
frankiespeakin
Decend,
In your opinion, Frankie, considering human nature has anyone ever achieved this real love that you speak of? Have you?
I don't know if the claims of others is true,,to me it should always be understood as a claim,,when other say they have "achieved" real love. And no I have never achieved it for I don't think you can achieve it. I would think that to experience this love would have to be a wholly voluntary surender of everything and here is the big big big "if",, that is if it exist.
If not, how do you know that your idea of real love actually exists?
Yes that is a delema isn't it,, we can't even say if the dam thing(love) exist!
But yet here we are debating,,thinking,,haveing fun and wondering what is Love? I admit I do have a biased towards there being this thing called real love,,there are no hard facts I can point to,, just hunches and guesses. Maybe throw in some quirky kinds of logic that seem to be correct only to find out some new idea that superceed all the rest. But that's what a debate is for put out ideas and watch what happens examine it from different perspectives.
But even if real love doesn't exist just taking a journey and probing what is this human concept of love,,this probing should have some reward for you emotionally or else don't do it. I find it relaxing,,mind opening and mind closing to this it is like inner probing for answers and not useing a dictionary.
-
Narkissos
I'm not so sure we can describe what love is not.
Although love can be construed as one element in a dualistic pair (love / hate), it is also a potentially all-embracing concept overcoming dualism. Hate has often been defined (e.g. by psychoanalysis) as love sub specie contraria. Maybe we all love our enemies without knowing it. I often felt there was a high level of collusion, even empathy between people who don't speak to each other. Perhaps love in its broadest acceptation is just the best word we could find for expressing our ultimate connection with everyone and everything (much like mahayana buddhism's "compassion").
Of course love is experienced in specific situations -- sexual relationships, family ties, friendship, but it is essentially more than any of those restricted feelings -- without being something else. There was a book by a French monk entitled There Is Only One Love. The WT, following some Christian thinkers, has tried to artificially separate agape from erôs, etc. Philologically it doesn't work (agape is the term for "love" in the erotic Song of Solomon!), and ideologically it results in a ridiculously narrow conception of love (as "based on principles"... love is based on nothing but itself).
While I was reading this thread I had a popular brazilian song in mind, "O que será," which describes love in a both sensual and boundless way without naming it. I tried to find an English translation of the lyrics but couldn't. Here it goes in Portuguese, maybe some will get the gist of it: the main lines are "what has no limit, what has no rule and will never have."
O que será que me dá Que me bole por dentro, será que me dá Que brota à flor da pele, será que me dá E que me sobe às faces e me faz corar E que me salta aos olhos a me atraiçoar E que me aperta o peito e me faz confessar O que não tem mais jeito de dissimular E que nem é direito ninguém recusar E que me faz mendigo, me faz suplicar O que não tem medida, nem nunca terá O que não tem remédio, nem nunca terá O que não tem receita. O que será que será Que dá dentro da gente e que não devia Que desacata a gente, que é revelia Que é feito uma aguardente que não sacia Que é feito estar doente de uma folia Que nem dez mandamentos vão conciliar Nem todos os unguentos vão aliviar Nem todos os quebrantos, toda alquimia Que nem todos os santos, será que será O que não tem descanso, nem nunca terá O que não tem cansaço, nem nunca terá O que não tem limite. O que será que me dá Que me queima por dentro, será que me dá Que me perturba o sono, será que me dá Que todos os tremores que vêm agitar Que todos os ardores me vêm atiçar Que todos os suores me vêm encharcar Que todos os meus órgãos estão a clamar E uma aflição medonha me faz implorar O que não tem vergonha, nem nunca terá O que não tem governo, nem nunca terá O que não tem juízo...