The Global Flood

by coldfish 290 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Hi Frankiespeakin,

    You're right of course, any Christian who posts an opinion here should rightly expect to be questioned about it. What I was objecting to was not the disagreement but rather the ridicule that so often comes with it when exJW Christians post an opinion. I don't mind discussing and answering questions but ridicule of someones intelligence or beliefs is not discussion it is veiled aggression. That is what I object to. It is much easier to play the batter role and hit the ball across the field and start running than it is to play the outfielder role and run to catch that ball and then attempt to get it back to Home plate before a run comes in.

    Answering questions that come from everywhere and from various angles is like trying to catch that ball. Sometimes we can't catch it, but that does not mean we are stupid, or evaders or less intelligent. It only means we failed to catch that particular ball. Here exJW Christians are expected to catch every ball, every time it's thrown. We simply cannot do it. If to others that translates into evidence that our beliefs are wrong then so be it. But even so, I believe we should at least be accorded some dignity and not have our intelligence ridiculed just because we still believe.

    Here's hoping you have a Great New Year!

    Sabrina

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hi LittleToe

    You said:

    Norm:There is no "true" religion.
    Is my stance clearer?

    Indeed it is, as far as you personally are concerned. But what I asked you was what is the Biblical psosition?
    Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
    It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

    Norm

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Norm,

    I know you know the answer to your question and your question was not directed to me. But I would like to answer it anyway.

    Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
    It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

    If the chrisitans on this board answer your question truthfully,,then it makes their God very petty,,it also reflects a jugdementalism inherent in "biblical" christianity. And so admitting to this exclusive nature of "biblical" christianity opens up a can of worms for them which is not polictically correct for this discussion group.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Earlier I said, "I am convinced beyond all doubt that the same God who created the universe inspired the writing of the Bible." I went on to say that I have discussed on this forum at some length in times past exactly what it was that so convinced me. And that discussion on this forum involved some of the same people who now here accuse me of failing to tell them why I am convinced that the God of the Bible created our universe. I said that I now prefer not to discuss that subject matter here again. For as I found then, and as I have said here, "What has convinced me most likely will not convince you." For, as we know, some people can dismiss any evidence, no matter how strong, as being merely "coincidental." Especially if the one considering the evidence does not wish to believe what the evidence points to. Case in point: the O. J. Simpson jury. Part of the reason I also begged off in entering into such a discussion is that I really don't have the time to defend my beliefs against all criticisms, criticisms which I know will surely come by those who find my "evidence" to be unconvincing. But, as I should have known, such statements were taken by some as being evasive. So, I am going to here again post information I have posted here in the past. I will then let it stand or fall on its own merit. For, as I said, I have little time right now to defend this material. Evidence Of The Christian God - by M. G. Satterlee

    All Scripture quotations are from The New International Version of the Bible
    except where otherwise indicated.

    Is it wrong to ask for evidence of the Christian God?

    The Bible asks us to believe some fantastic things. Things that seem too good to be
    true.Things that some people say are so incredible that they cannot possibly believe them without "proof."

    Among the incredible things the Bible asks us to believe is that a man who was born on earth 2,000 years ago, a man the Bible calls "Jesus Christ," actually created our universe. The Bible also asks us to believe that this man named "Jesus," before being born as a human being, actually existed in the form of God Himself. And, the Bible tells us that while Jesus Christ "was God," He decided to empty Himself of God's form and become a mere man. The Bible says He did this so He could then, as a man, die a torturous death on Roman cross.(John 1:1-3; Colossians 1;16,17; Philippians 2:5-8) The Bible goes on to say that while living on earth as a man, this "Jesus Christ" willingly suffered and died on that cross, for the purpose of paying a death penalty that was not His responsibility to pay, a death penalty that had actually been given to each one of us because of our unrighteousness. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1Peter 2:21, 22; 1John 4:10) And, as if all that were not hard enough to believe, the Bible then asks us to believe something that many find even more unbelievable. For It says that if we will only believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ died for us, as payment in full for all our unrighteousness, God will release us from the death penalty that is due us for our sins, and in its place He will reward us with "immortality." (John 3:16, 36; Acts 10:43; Romans 4:23-25; 10:9; ohn11:25, 26; 1Corinthians 15:54)

    Many people have been taught these incredible things from childhood and so have little trouble accepting them to be true. Some of these people have never stopped to think how difficult these Bible teachings may be for others to believe. Some who believe the story of Jesus Christ as told in the Bible actually criticize those who find it hard to believe for not having "enough faith."

    But if a Supreme Being does exist, and if this Supreme Being cares for the human race as the Bible says He does, would He really want us to believe every incredible story we hear? No. He certainly would not. For if we did, we would quickly be led astray in all sorts of possibly very dangerous directions. The fact is, the Bible tells us that God does not even want us to accept the story of Scripture as true unless we first "prove all things" to ourselves. For the Bible itself tells us that those with "noble character" have always "examined" what they have been taught, to see if it is really "true." (1Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 17:11)

    So, today when a skeptic asks a Christian to "prove" to her or to him the existence of the Christian God such a request should not be considered unreasonable. Rather, I believe, it is more unreasonable to expect someone to accept the incredible story of Jesus Christ as told in the Bible without some "proof." It is my firm belief that God does exist and that He understands and sympathizes with those who, in this age of modern science, cannot bring themselves to accept the Bible's story of Jesus Christ as true, without some strong evidence that it really is true. And, because of God's great love for those who now require scientific "proof" that the Bible's story of Jesus Christ is true, I am convinced that God now provides such people with such "proof." I believe that the evidence that will here be presented will be enough to convince many sincere seekers of truth that the story of Jesus Christ contained in the Bible may indeed be true. If you are willing to consider the possibility that the Bible's story of Jesus Christ contained in the Bible may be true, but simply require some evidence of its validity before you are able to give it serious consideration, I ask that you read these next few pages. I believe you will find them quite interesting.

    I contend that not only did Jesus Christ create our universe, but that He "signed" His name "in the sun, moon and stars" to all of His cosmic creations. And I contend that He did so in a way that not only identifies Himself as their Creator, but also identifies Himself as our Savior. To support these contentions I offer the following evidence, evidence which I believe clearly connects the Jesus Christ of Scripture with the design, and thus the designer, of our universe.

    1. The Bible often uses the # 40 in connection with highly significant people and events.

    Most readers of Scripture are aware that the Bible often makes special use of the #
    40. Rain fell from the sky for "40 days and 40 nights" causing the flood of Noah's day.
    (Genesis 7:11,12) Moses was on Mount Sinai communicating with God on two separate occasions, each time for "40 days and 40 nights."(Exodus 24:18; 34:28) Afterwards the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for "40 years" before entering the land God had promised them.(Numbers 32:13; Joshua 23:5) The first three kings of Israel, Saul, David and Solomon, each ruled for "40 years."(Acts 13:21; 1Kings 2:10,11; 11:42) Jonah, best known for spending "three days and three nights" in the belly of "a great fish", was ordered by God to prophesy that the city of Nineveh would be overthrown in "forty more days".(Jonah 1:17; 3:1-4) Before beginning His ministry Jesus fasted for "40 days and 40 nights."(Luke 4:1,2) These are only a few of the times the Bible uses the # 40 in a prominent way.

    2. The # 40 was meant to point to Jesus Christ.
    It is my belief that the # 40 was used so often and so prominently in the Bible for the
    purpose of directing our attention to Jesus Christ. Like the 40 days of rain which washed away all wickedness from the land in Noah's day, Christ's coming was prophesied to also be "like showers watering the earth." For, like the rains which cleansed the land in the days of Noah, the Bible tells us that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ "cleanses us from all sin." (Genesis 6:11-17; Psalms 72:6; 1John 1:7)

    As Moses mediated the Old Covenant between God and the Israelites during 40 day
    periods of time, Jesus Christ now acts as the Mediator of the New Covenant which He, by His death, established with Christians.(Exodus 19:3-9; Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15)

    As the Israelites wandered aimlessly in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years prior to the time God gave them their promised land, all mankind was lost in a spiritual wilderness before God gave us our promised Savior.(Luke 19:10)

    As Saul, who ruled for 40 years, was Israel's first king, Jesus Christ is "the First and the Last" "King" of "the Israel of God." (Revelation 1:17; 1Timothy 6:15; Galatians
    6:16)

    Long after David Had ruled Israel for 40 years Isaiah prophesied that the promised Savior, Jesus Christ, would "reign on David's throne and over his kingdom." For this reason Jesus was called "the son of David."(Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Matthew 1:1)

    Many spiritual connections can be found in the Bible between Solomon, who ruled all
    Israel for 40 years, and Jesus Christ. Solomon, for instance, built God's Temple in
    Jerusalem. While Jesus Christ built God's spiritual Temple.(1Kings 6:1-38; Matthew
    16:15-18; 1Corinthians 3:11,16) For this reason, and others, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is "greater than Solomon."(Matthew 12:42)

    The spiritual connection between Jonah, who prophesied that Nineveh would be
    overthrown in "40 more days,? and Jesus Christ was firmly established by Jesus Himself. For He said, ?as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish", so Christ would "be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth?, after His death and before His resurrection.(Matthew 12:40)

    Just before He began His ministry Jesus Christ fasted for 40 days. At the end of those 40 days "He was hungry." And so were those who had been eagerly anticipating the arrival of mankind's long awaited Savior. For their "hunger" had been "for righteousness", a hunger which only Jesus Christ could satisfy, and a righteousness which only Jesus Christ Himself could give them.(Matthew 4:2; 5:6; John 6:35; Romans 3:21,22)

    3. Just as the biblical # 40 points to Jesus Christ, so do the biblical #s 4 and 400
    The #s 4 and 40 can both easily be seen as abbreviated forms of the # 400. It is not
    surprising then to find that the Bible also uses the #s 4 and 400 in the same way that it does the # 40, to point to Jesus Christ.

    For instance, in regard to the # 4, the Bible's creation account tells us that the sun, moon and stars first appeared in earth's skies on the 4th creative day. And the Bible, which tells the story of Jesus Christ in 4 "gospels", connects this 4th "day" of creation with Jesus Christ by calling Him "the light of the world."(Genesis 1:14-19; John 8:12)

    One well known example of the Bible's use of the # 400 involves the period of time that Abraham's descendants were "enslaved and oppressed" before being set free from their bondage in Egypt. The Bible tells us that period of time was "400 years." The Bible also says that, much like the Israelites, all mankind had once been enslaved and oppressed for a long period of time. However, this slavery and oppression was by sin and death, from which, the Bible tells us, Jesus Christ came to set us free. We are told Christ did so by buying with His own life both God's forgiveness and immortality for all who will accept Him as their Lord.(Genesis 15:13; Matthew 20:28; Luke 4:18; Ephesians 1:7; John 3:16; 1Corinthians 15:54) Interestingly, the Bible tells us that the Israelites' 400 years of oppression and slavery came to an end immediately following a plague in which God took the life of every firstborn son in Egypt. It also tells us that all mankind was offered freedom from the oppression and slavery of sin and death immediately following the death of God's Firstborn Son, Jesus Christ.(Exodus 11:4,5; Hebrews 11:28; Colossians 1:15;
    Hebrews 1:5,6)

    A thorough examination of the Bible's symbolic use of the #s 4, 40 and 400 shows that the Bible always uses these #s to point to Jesus Christ.

    4. The # 400 which fills the Bible (often in abbreviated forms) for the purpose of directing attention to Jesus Christ also fills "the sun, moon and stars."
    The Sun and the Moon
    The sun's diameter is exactly 400 X the size of the moon's diameter. (864,000 mi. vs. 2,160 mi.) http://g3.tmsc.org/astronomy/solarsys/model/model.html
    But remember, it makes no difference whether you measure their diameters in miles, meters or toothpicks. This 400 X ratio will always be the same.

    The sun's distance from the earth is also always about 400 X greater than the moon's distance from the earth. I say "about 400" because, unlike the sun's diameter compared to that of the moon, this 400 X sun vs. moon distance ratio is only exact twice every lunar month. (Dance Of The Planets, Version 2.71s, A.R.C. Science Simulation Software,1994)

    Solar Eclipses
    Because the moon's diameter is 1/400 the size of the sun's diameter and because the moon is about 1/400 as far away from the earth as the earth is from the sun, the moon is precisely the correct size to cover the face of the sun as seen from the earth. It is because of this relationship, which the earth, sun and moon have with the # 400, that we are able to observe what has been called "the greatest spectacle in nature," a total eclipse of the sun. Consequently, when a total eclipse of the sun occurs, and the moon then covers the sun in the sky as perfectly as a lid fits its own jar, all who have a basic knowledge of astronomy have their attention immediately drawn to the # 400. http://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/why.html

    It is also interesting to note that, "The average time between total eclipse paths crossing one location (being able to observe a total eclipse of the sun from any one spot on earth) is about 400 years." (See The Sun - Our Star, Robert W. Noyes, 1982, page 145)

    The Stars of our Galaxy
    Carl Sagan, in his books Cosmos (1980, page 299) and The Demon Haunted World
    (1995, page 330), estimated the # of stars in our galaxy at "400 billion."

    5. These cosmic 400s serve as "signs" directing our attention to Jesus Christ.
    I believe that God was referring to these 400s in the sun, moon and stars when He spoke the words recorded in Genesis 1:14. There we are told God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."(New American Standard Bible) I am also convinced that Jesus Christ was referring to these astronomical 400s when He said, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars." (Luke 21:25) And I believe that Jesus spoke of these same cosmic 400s, when He told us,"The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky."(Matthew 24:30)

    Keep in mind that the Greek word then used by Christ, which is translated into English as "appear", according to An Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words by W.E.Vine, refers not just to what appears to the eye, but also to "what appears to the mind." It should also be here noted that Jesus Christ often used the title "the Son of Man" when referring to Himself. This was an obvious reference to the prophet Daniel's well known and powerful Messianic prophecy.(Daniel 7:13,14)

    Since the # 400, and abbreviated forms thereof, fills both our sky and the Bible, it seemed reasonable to this reader of Scripture to at least consider the possibility that if a Supreme Being designed and created the universe, that same Supreme Being may have also inspired the Bible. After considering this possibility I became convinced of something even more compelling. For I now firmly believe that the Creator of the Universe incorporated the # 400, and abbreviated forms thereof, into both His cosmic creations and into His Word the Bible for the specific purpose of personally identifying Himself as Jesus Christ.

    How do the #s 400, 40 and 4 personally identify Jesus Christ as both the Creator of the Universe and the God of the Bible? They do so because they are short forms, or sign forms, of the # 4000, the exact # of years that passed between the creation of Adam and the earthly birth of Jesus Christ, according to the Bible's own very precise chronological, historical record. Serving as "signs" of the exact time of His birth, the #s 400, 40 and 4 were, I believe, meant by Jesus Christ to remind us of Himself in much the same way that many people are now reminded of the United States of America when they hear someone mention the year of that nation's birth, 1776.

    And because these long and short form "signs" of Jesus Christ, in effect His signature and His initials, fill "the sun, moon and stars" and the Bible, we have strong reason to believe that He is the Author of both.

    Why would Jesus Christ choose to identify Himself with # signs representing the time of His earthly birth as counted from the time of Adams creation? For two reasons. First, because it was in Eden, Adam's garden home, that God first promised to send mankind a Savior.(Gen. 3:15) And second, because from the time of Adam an elaborate chronological, historical record was kept, which has been preserved in the Bible, that we can now use to confirm the time of Christ's birth, as counted from the time of Adam's creation.

    Please do not misunderstand me. I am certainly not suggesting that human beings have been on earth for only 6,000 years (4,000 years from Adam to Christ plus another 2,000 years from Christ to the present). For paleontologists, anthropologists and archcheologists all assure us that mankind has lived on earth far longer than 6,000 years. And I believe them.

    6. Was Adam the "first" Man?
    This seeming conflict between Bible chronology and well established human history is easily resolved by understanding that the Bible does not tell us that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man." I believe that God simply used Adam, and orchestrated the events in Eden, to illustrate the unrighteous condition of all mankind. (This understanding also answers the often asked question, "Where did Cain get his wife?")

    The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47.
    There Adam is called "the first man." But there we also find that Jesus is called "the
    second man." The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second," Adam came before Christ.

    Traditional thinking Christians will no doubt also raise other objections to this
    understanding of Scripture. I am fully prepared to answer any and all such objections.
    However, to do so here would detract from the subject at hand, evidence of the Christian God.

    7. 4,000 years from Adam to Christ
    With this understanding of Scripture in mind, we have no reason to insist that Adam was the first man. For, as we have seen, the Bible does not tell us that Adam was the first man in an absolute chronological sense. And since the Bible does not say that Adam was the first man who ever lived we have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Bible's chronological, historical record which tells us that Jesus Christ was born only 4,000 years after God created Adam.

    And, since the Bible's chronological, historical record tells us that Jesus Christ was born exactly 4,000 years after God created Adam, we have every reason to believe that the 400s, 40s and 4s which fill both our sky and the Bible do so for the purpose of personally identifying Jesus Christ as both The Creator of the Universe and The Savior of the World.

    8. Jesus Christ is "the light of the world."
    That Jesus Christ chose to put signs identifying Himself as our Creator and Savior into the sun, moon and stars, rather than into something else, like earth's land or sea, seems quite fitting. For Jesus Himself boldly declared, "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12) With this in mind it seems appropriate to here mention what I believe to be one more occurrence of "the sign of the Son of Man" in the sun and the moon. For "The Sun is 400 thousand times as bright as the full moon." ( The World Almanac )

    9. God's design or unmatched coincidence?
    If I am wrong, and Jesus Christ did not put these #s into the Bible and into "the sun, moon and stars" to direct our attention to Himself as both our Creator and our Savior, then atheistic astronomers must be right. For they maintain that the relationship which the earth, sun and moon have with the biblical # 400 is simply "a coincidence unmatched in the solar system." ( See National Geographic May 1992, page 41)

  • Sunchild
    Sunchild

    frankiespeakin,

    If the chrisitans on this board answer your question truthfully,,then it makes their God very petty,,it also reflects a jugdementalism inherent in "biblical" christianity. And so admitting to this exclusive nature of "biblical" christianity opens up a can of worms for them which is not polictically correct for this discussion group.

    Interesting. But to be perfectly honest... I don't see how the atheist point of view is much better. From what I've seen in this forum and others, the general consensus among atheists seems to be that anyone who believes in God -- especially the Christian God -- is defective somehow, and that only truth is found in atheism.

    By default, anyone who sees their own position as the absolute truth will exclude other points of view as false, yes? The most important thing, I think, is where you go from there.

    ~Rochelle.

  • Norm
    Norm

    Hello there frankiespeakin

    You said:

    Norm,

    I know you know the answer to your question and your question was not directed to me. But I would like to answer it anyway. Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
    It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

    If the chrisitans on this board answer your question truthfully,,then it makes their God very petty,,it also reflects a jugdementalism inherent in "biblical" christianity. And so admitting to this exclusive nature of "biblical" christianity opens up a can of worms for them which is not polictically correct for this discussion group.

    I am afraid you are on to something there. It is really sad but it certainly is a good indication of the level of honesty and credibilty. I saw a lot of this verbal contortionism when debating with JW's. I would have thought they at least had learned a little from their stint in the WTS, but here they are repeating the same things over again. Why is it that truth, honesty and reality becomes so dangerous to religious people? Norm
  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Norm,

    Sabrina,

    You totally avoided to answer my question. Here it is again:

    Do you really claim that Christendom (the Bible) isn't making the claim to be the only true religion in the world? If it isn't, why then did Jesus send out missionaries to convert everybody to Christendom?"

    Why can't you answer this simple question Sabrina?

    I did answer the question Norm. But unlike you I will not question your reading skills or instruct you to go and read my answer again. If you think I didn't answer, fine, it's not that important to me Norm.

    Then you said: "totally disagree with the perspective you present here. The reason being that it takes no account of the actual message that the biblical Jesus presented. If he had said go out and preach a doctrine of intolerance, then you might have a point, but I'm sorry - I just dont read it that way
    . Sorry Norm, you are confusing me with another poster. I did not write what you quoted above. But again I will neither question your reading skills nor accuse you of lying. You simply make a mistake just like we all do.

    If your future life is dependent upon if you accept the gospel. Say if you refuse to accept it what would happen to you then, Sabrina? Would Jesus say, "aw that's allright, your religion is as good as mine"? Or will it be something like this?

    "...the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.(2 Thess. 1:6-8)"

    (2 Peter 3:8-9) . . .. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

    Your comments above are in reference to another poster's comment. I leave it to you to find him and deliver your questions to him directly.
    I must say that I have rarely seen a better example of selctive Bible reading,
    Yes, I even selectively chose not to read your entire post.
    several of you seem to be extremely picky about which Bible texts to "believe in" and which to ignore.

    Norm, think what you like. But it is rather strange for a man who does not believe anything in the Bible to accuse others of only believing parts of it. You have no idea what I believe Norm. I attempted to answer your questions to the best of my ability. If that was not good enough Norm, I don't care. I don't care Norm because your aim is to destroy not to build or to understand one another. Under those circumstances there is no reason to discuss anything or to care.

    Creating one's own version of a religion based on some selected Bible texts is understandable.

    I have not created a version of any religion Norm. You keep going on and on about what Norm? That we disagree. True. That I believe something which you do not believe. True. That you insist on being proven right or at the very least proving Christians wrong? True.

    Let me help you with that, Norm......You Are Right About Everything Norm! The Bible is trash and Christians are morons.

    I understand fully well all that you don't want to deal with the bigotted nasty, arrogant parts of scripture. But they are there. When it comes to you Sabrina, you seem to have a particular talent for avoiding them.

    No, Norm. You see, to remain a Christian after leaving the Witnesses I had to confront the same demons that all exJWs must confront including disbelief in the Bible and other spiritual questions. I have faced all the problems and all the scriptures and all the hurts Norm. You are an accusatory person. And worse you wantonly throw about false accusations like the one quoted above. It kills you not be right Norm. So let me not be the one to add to your pain. Again I will say: You Are Right Norm. The Bible is trash and Christians are morons. Oh, and your reading skills are unparalled!! Addendum: Norm, you said this to LT:

    Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
    It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.
    In my post, the one you declared did not answer your questions properly, I said this with regard to that same question:
    "As for Jesus claiming to point the way, the only way; yes, of course he did."
    I guess you did not understand what I wrote. If I though were to reply to you in the same arrogant manner you have replied to me on this thread I would then say this to you: "Norm, I'm going to try and explain this to you as plainly as I possibly can. You see, when I said that Jesus claimed to point to the way, the only way; that meant Norm that Jesus was claiming to worship God in the only true way. This in turn means the NT also makes that claim. And, Norm, just so that you completely understand where I am coming from. The fact that I claim to be Christian means that others may also safely assume that I myself feel that Jesus was the Messiah and thus eventually will in the future be the Savior of the world. Not Budha, not Mohammed, not anyone else only Jesus. Those others may have been fine sincere people but if I thought they had the right way, the only way, then I would be a Budhist or a Muslim. Do you understand now Norm? "Now, Norm, you may complain to me and say: 'but you didn't use the word religion, I asked about religion not ways, why didn't you use the word religion? ' "Well, Norm, because. Because I was trying to make it as simple and plain as I could. Look up the meaning of the word religion Norm and read what Jesus said about the way and write a well thought out post with what you find. Okay?" But, I myself, would not have written that kind of reply. Sabrina
  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Sun,

    Let me say first that I am not an atheist. I'm simply have no idea of whether or not there is a God.

    And I agree in part to:

    But to be perfectly honest... I don't see how the atheist point of view is much better.

    Both the atheist and theist are pretty much taking their stand on assumptions. I think that to be dogmatic either way means one is forcing the facts to support their world view. Not very scientific if you ask me just closed thinking.

    From what I've seen in this forum and others, the general consensus among atheists seems to be that anyone who believes in God -- especially the Christian God -- is defective somehow, and that only truth is found in atheism.

    The universe or perhaps universes (as in infinite universe) and what caused it (or them) is probably beyond our grasp intellectually,,therefore I don't think anyone can sat with certainty,,and so I side with niether atheist or theist. Both camps if you ask me are pigeon holed by their beleifs. And as far as the Christian God well it is just a myth that has hung on a little longer than the myths about Jupitor, Mars and Uranus(smile).

    By default, anyone who sees their own position as the absolute truth will exclude other points of view as false, yes? The most important thing, I think, is where you go from there.

    I totally agree with you here. I think the best thing to do is just don't take a position were one has to suppose that he has the absolute truth. Be open,,and free,, and don't commit to any beleif system,,because they are all unproveable anyway so why commit to any?

    As to where we should go from there,, I would say treat anybody's beleif system as just an assumption,,and probably false. Unless they can supply you with extra ordinary proof,, if they do then beleive it. As far as the bible is concerned there is a great deal of proof it is just mythology and not the real word of God.

  • Sunchild
    Sunchild

    Hiya, Frankie.

    Both the atheist and theist are pretty much taking their stand on assumptions. I think that to be dogmatic either way means one is forcing the facts to support their world view.

    Hmm, from the looks of it, you're just your basic "reasonable human being." I respect that, and I think the world could use a few more of 'em.

    I totally agree with you here. I think the best thing to do is just don't take a position were one has to suppose that he has absolute truth. Be open,,and free,, don't commit to any beleif system,,because they are all unproveable so why commit to any?

    Here's where the surprise comes in: I'm a Christian. My life turned out in such a way that, for me, there IS proof of Christ's power. However, I do understand that that's not true for everyone, and I seek to do my "preaching" the same way Christ did. The only people he condemned outright were the hypocritical Pharaisees, and in his interactions with others, the greatest proof of his truth was the kindness, patience and love he showed to others. Interestingly, he seemed to save most of his religion talk for people who were inclined to listen to it.

    Also, my JW experience taught me something very important, and it fits in well with what you've said: it's vitally important to know that you don't know everything. *g* Fewer people get hurt that way, including yourself.

    ~Rochelle.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    4

    40

    400

    Numerology.

    Again this very idea conflicts against the idea of a god who is desirous that all can attain salvation. It creates an elite, firstly of those capable of actually discerning this 'constant' if it exists (counting the stars, measuring the Earth, Sun and Moon and the orbital distances), which is not a lot of people in history. Then it require these people have contact with the text that would allow them to see the confluence. Again, not a lot of people in history.

    I think god would be fair. 'Fairness' is seen as acknowledged by any society; a teacher can lose a class if the children feel they are unfair, friends will be alienated if we are unfair to them, we will be incensed if we are treated unfairly.

    If this sense of fairness is universal and we are created in god's image, it is hard to explain how god could allow such unfairness.

    Also, it's very easy to round numbers. We will pass over the unprovable nature of "since the Bible's chronological, historical record tells us that Jesus Christ was born exactly 4,000 years after God created Adam" and play with numbers first, shall we?

    Sun's visual magnitude -26.74
    Full moon's astronomical visual magnitude -12.73

    It's a ghastly log scale but that is about 402,000 times brighter than the moon. Cosmic significance goes out the window unless god is a sloppy workman, or workgod I suppose ("hey, it's 6.30pm, that's close enough, pack the hydrogen away").

    Moon's mean orbit 384,400 km
    Earth's mean orbit 149,597,870 km

    The Earth orbits the Sun at 389.17 times the distance the Moon orbits the Earth.

    Moon's diameter 3,476 km
    Suns diameter 1,392,000 km

    So the Sun is 400.46 times the diameter of the Earth.

    Again, either the significance of these numbers is illusory and helped by rounding, or god is sloppy.

    Now, will you stop making things up and stretching facts to fit?

    Or will you do a little research and realise that the orbital diameters have changed over time, as has the Sun's diameter, and then spend months calculating when the Sun will have shrunk enough and the Moon's orbit increased enough and solar luminosity is exactly 400,000 times that of the Moon.

    Maybe that is when the end will come?

    Off the top of my head it would be about 140,000,000 AD. I could be out by several orders of magnitude; I am guessing. But a very long time.

    (added) Come to think of it, make that 1,400,000,000 years ago, +/- ^02. Approximately. Maybe.

    Which is the problem. Make up a bit here and round a number there and you build fancy upon fancy, and end up with nonsense.

    Making faith complicated is the biggest lie ever. It reduces people from independent agents before whatever they believe in to parts of a system, most often so they can be controlled.

    Make sure you wash all the way up to the elbows now, otherwise you're not properly clean...

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