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However, you should also keep in mind that from the point of view of many Witnesses, it's not a matter of coming across *valid information* that they fear could damage their spirituality.

It's more like a fear of ingesting poison (an analogy the Society loves to use). In other words, the information they'd see WOULDN'T be valid, but would still destroy their faith and wreck things for them.

Where that viewpoint falls short is when it becomes apparent that most of the damning information about the Society appears in its own publications, which are mostly readily accessible to anyone who wants to do a little digging.

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30

Could we learn something from David?

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

what can we learn from david when he encountered saul?.

1 samuel 24:2-7 says.

and saul proceeded to take three thousand chosen men out of all israel and to go looking for david and his men upon the bare rocks of the mountain goats.

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YoYoMama,

The explanation you posted from the WT CD is pure speculation.

Note the following speculative words (in capitals) the Society uses to try to justify this account:

The fact that bloodguilt was upon both Saul and his household SUGGESTS that, although Saul PROBABLY took the lead in the murderous action, the “sons” of Saul MAY directly or indirectly have shared in it. (2Sa 21:1-9) IN THAT EVENT this WOULD not be a case of sons dying for the sins of their fathers (De 24:16) but WOULD involve the administration of retributive justice in harmony with the law “soul will be for soul.”—De 19:21.[/b]

This sort of rhetoric is typical of both the Society and Bible apologists in general.

How do they proceed?

ASSUMPTION #1: The Bible is ALWAYS, ALWAYS right and true and just. The opposite possibility can't even be contemplated!

ASSUMPTION #2: Since the Bible is so perfect, anything in it that looks stupid or barbarous or unintelligible has to be explained away, attributing that interpretation to the imperfect understanding of human readers.

ASSUMPTION #3: When something as barbarous as mass murder is involved, the easiest way to get around it and justify it is to invoke some huge abstract principle of justice or balancing the scales or whatever: "They all had to die so that God's righteous law would be obeyed!" This tactic is used for everything from the blood-soaked pages of the Hebrew Scriptures right up to Armageddon.

ASSUMPTION #4: EVEN when it isn't clearly stated that one of these abstract principles of justice had to be satisfied by means of killing large numbers of people, the Society or the Bible apologist will drag one in from left field to make the horrible event more palatable.

Try going into court some day and, say, telling the judge: "Oh yes, I did kill this man, but you see, his behavior SUGGESTS that he MAY have been transgressing the divine law against fornication, in which case it WOULD NOT be classified as murder but only as upholding God's righteous standards. No, I don't have any firm proof that he even did fornicate, but still, this is how it is, and you have to accept it."

Oh yes, let us all be more like righteous David.

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40

At Which Table Are You Feeding?

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

at which table are you feeding?.

you cannot be partaking of the table of jehovah and the table of demons.1 corinthians 10:21.. these inspired words of the apostle paul show that two figurative tables are set before mankind.

each table is identified by the kind of symbolic food placed upon it, and all of us are eating at one or the other.

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I've read this article before. In fact, more than once. In fact, I think I may have been asked to read it aloud at the congregation Watchtower Study.

The phrase "Satan's demonic junk food" never fails to crack me up.

On a related note, one of the worst things any speaker at the Kingdom Hall could do, in my opinion, was to create some analogy using the word "spiritual" in conjunction with another word (i.e. "spiritual lawnmower," "spiritual gas tank," "spiritual underwear" etc.).

Usually, the analogies involved cars, which of course reflected back on a) the speaker's gender (always male) and b) the speaker's employment or hobby (typically for a Witness, he'd either be some kind of mechanic or really into cars).

I couldn't help but think how the sisters (or select brothers, like me) who didn't give a flying fig about anything to do with cars must be enjoying and benefiting from these analogies.

Anyway, pass the potato chips, please.

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30

EX-JW Project Announcement

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

what may at first glance seem like a fantasy, the ex-dub island of refuge project is for real.

simply put, several friends on this network have decided to throw their resources together to create a better life for themselves by buying a privately owned tropical island, making a community, developing employment for all, and enjoying great fellowship while living in this aposta fiesta paradise.. a few weeks ago, i started a lighthearted thread entitled,would you like to live on gilligans island?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=15431&site=3.

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Lord of the Flies...now there's a great book!

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2

Allow No Place for the WTS! (Pt. 2)

by comment in

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friends

9 what is often the motive of those who praise the society or those taking the lead?

is it not often that some application of scripture benefits them personally?

rather than just leaving well enough alone, they want everybody else to change.

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Fred,

Glad to see you read it with the same level of attention to detail that you bring to any Watchtower article!

Shouldn't you be in field service or something?

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2

Allow No Place for the WTS! (Pt. 2)

by comment in

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friends

9 what is often the motive of those who praise the society or those taking the lead?

is it not often that some application of scripture benefits them personally?

rather than just leaving well enough alone, they want everybody else to change.

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9 What is often the motive of those who praise the Society or those taking the lead? Is it not often that some application of Scripture benefits them personally? Rather than just leaving well enough alone, they want everybody else to change. Let us illustrate this with a few examples:

10 A male Jehovah's Witness chooses some clothing or grooming style that is not prevalent in the Midwestern United States. The elders feel that he is not a good example and do not give him certain assignments, such as appearing on the platform to tell others how they should live their lives. He becomes resentful and correctly points out that the elders are trying to take away his freedom. What is behind such reasoning? Is it not usually pride, an independent attitude and the rather normal desire to not be a cookie-cutter image of 1950's manhood? While this seemingly is a small thing, a person who does not reason in that way could “allow place for the Watchtower Society.” Dress comfortably, wash your clothes and spend a little extra if you prefer to be fashionable. We should want to do all things for the betterment of human society and hopefully please ourselves along the way.

11 Let us take another example. Frequently you hear the Watchtower Society argue that the Scriptural prohibition against eating blood really applies to transfusions. But what is behind that reasoning? Is it fear—fear of possibly losing control over its members? Are its hopes of winning court cases over medical mismanagement fading? The vast majority of people do not obsess over their narrow interpretation of "God’s law" or look for ways to make it apply to situations that were never anticipated in Bible times. Abstaining from blood to nourish the body is a good idea, particularly if you have some nice restaurants nearby.

12 Some who have a realistic attitude point out that "Jehovah’s organization" is too strict about cutting off social contacts with disfellowshipped persons. But why do these critics feel that way? Do they have a close family tie or loyalty to a friend that they are putting ahead of loyalty to the Watchtower Society's standards and requirements, which were not so strict in the past and loosened up in the 1970's before hardening again in 1981? Well, good for the critics! Consider, too, that continuing to accord social fellowship to an expelled person, particularly a relative, may lead the erring one to conclude that his course is not so serious, and this to his long-term benefit! However, withholding normal human contact may make him become depressed, worthless and suicidal. "Jehovah’s way" is a ridiculous caricature of "tough love," and it serves for the protection of the Watchtower Society's flimsy doctrinal structure and tight grip on its members.

13 Still another person may claim that the Scriptures do not support public preaching from house to house. But is this because he already dislikes this important work and is looking for an excuse to abstain? Well, it might be. Or maybe he actually thinks the Scriptures don't support it. Love of God and neighbor should motivate us to see that banging on doors, by and large, is not the best way to convince people of anything. Again, common sense is needed. The apostle Paul spoke of his own endurance in ‘thoroughly bearing witness to Jews and Greeks’ as he taught publicly and from house to house. Rather than get too excited about this, should we not realize that Paul lived two thousand years in a completely different culture? Look at the thousands who have been gathered into the “one flock” mostly because they were born into it or because they live in a Third World country and lack Internet access. And do not forget the fine benefits we receive in just going about our day-to-day lives and pursuing our personal goals instead of handing out literature published by the Watchtower Society.

14 Finally, we might consider what the Society has published in the past on chronology. People who bother to research the matter point out that Jehovah’s Witnesses are false prophets. These opponents note that the Society set a whole bunch of dates, but nothing happened. They are correct. So who cares what their motive is? Who cares whether they are "encouraging wakefulness on the part of God’s people" or trying to justify themselves for doing something different with their lives? More importantly, what will you do if you hear such criticism? If a person is gobbling up anecdotal evidence and numerical jiggery-pokery to convince himself we are living in “the last days” of this system, or perhaps is using abstract notions of justice to prop up the idea that God actually could cause the death of so many millions of people during the “great tribulation,” then this individual already has prepared his heart to listen to the Watchtower Society.

15 The Watchtower Society has changed dozens of doctrines in the 130-odd years of its existence. Because of its eagerness to keep its membership riled up, it has predicted the imminent arrival of the new system several times, and just doesn't seem to learn. Moreover, the Society's frequent need to revise its understanding drastically gives you a pretty good idea of whether or not it's composed of false prophets. How sensible to take the view that teaching flip-flopping back and forth call into question the whole body of truth! The evidence is far from clear that Jehovah has used and is continuing to use one organization with “the faithful and discreet slave” taking the lead. Hence, don't fall into blind-alley reasoning like Peter, who said: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life."

16 In the so-called "spiritual paradise," among Jehovah’s Witnesses, we can find some good things and a bunch of negatives that you get in a lot of religions. By its bad fruits, the Watchtower Society is exposed for what it really is. Jesus indicated that the good trees would be identified by their fine fruits. And that's a good thought from Jesus! Amazing increases in the quality of life are taking place in many countries. Scientists, artists, blue-collar workers and many others are living proof that most people are trying to live their lives the best way they can.

17 Because they think they are taught by God, Jehovah’s Witnesses fall into the trap of believing they have the one and only way to salvation. Instead, they have their own set of superstitions. And they do not completely abide by what they teach about sexual immorality, drunkenness, stealing, idolatry, racial prejudice, and other worldly pursuits and practices. They like to boast about how they are the only ones obeying the command to preach the good news of Jehovah’s Kingdom. But their emphasis on door-knocking leads them to neglect other important aspects of life.

18 "Jehovah’s truth" may sound beautiful and satisfying, especially the first time you hear about it. So be careful. Resolve in your heart that you will never touch the poison that the Watchtower Society wants you to sip. However, if you want to research it a bit and figure out all the problems with the doctrines, go right ahead. Heed the wise advice of friends, family and former Jehovah's Witnesses to avoid those who would deceive you, mislead you, turn you aside into the ways of religious servitude. If we love life with our whole heart, soul, and mind, while loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, we will leave no room for penetration by fanaticism. We will not “allow place for the Watchtower Society” and will look elsewhere. We will not ‘be quickly shaken from our reason’ by some counterfeit teaching.

19 Let us always appreciate our privilege of being alive. We all have people who are important to us in our lives. So maintain close association with them, knowing that they are what counts. May we continue to have the same joy that we had when we were kids and do our best and be nice to other people. As some smart guy so aptly said: “Let no man deprive you of just getting on with your life."

2

Allow No Place for the WTS! (Pt. 1)

by comment in

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friends

allow no place for the watchtower society!.

let the sun not set with you in a provoked state, neither allow place for the watchtower society.. a vicious wild beast is on the prowl.

he has an insatiable desire to devour regular people living their lives.

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ALLOW NO PLACE FOR THE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY!

“Let the sun not set with you in a provoked state, neither allow place for the Watchtower Society.”

A VICIOUS wild beast is on the prowl. He has an insatiable desire to devour regular people living their lives. Here's some good advice: “Keep your senses, be watchful. Your adversary, the Watchtower Society, walks about like a roaring lion, seeking to devour someone. But take your stand against him, solid in your grip on reality. After you have suffered a little while, you'll hopefully get over it.”

2 We can be sure that the Watchtower Society and its agents, all human, stand ready to exploit any gnawing doubt, any serious flaw of personality, any negligence on our part to keep a grip on reality. But you can be pretty sure that the Watchtower Society will not devour us if we take a firm stand against it. For instance, no one falls victim to this religion because it just could not be avoided, that is, unless you were born into it. No one is predestined to abandon common sense. Motives of the heart are involved. People become Jehovah's Witnesses either because they were having a tough time in their lives or because they thought they could get something out of it. For instance, Judas Iscariot had a good heart when called as one of Jesus’ 12 apostles, but he just couldn't resist invoking the donation arrangement.

3 A person becomes a Jehovah's Witness because he lets his chosen associates and surroundings mold his thinking and determine the direction of his will. Paul spoke of some who were ‘once enlightened, had tasted the gift of freedom, but had fallen away.’ If we are not continually on guard, the Watchtower Society can by its sly propaganda make our hearts receptive to religious thinking. But how does the Watchtower Society, in effect, set a person up as a likely casualty, a victim of the door-to-door work?

4 Common attitudes that the Watchtower Society looks for are bitterness, resentment, and faultfinding. Such feelings can grow so strong that there is very little room left for love and appreciation. Perhaps some unresolved problem festers, causing a person to feel angry and justified in staying away from family members, acquaintances and workmates. By remaining provoked for an extended period of time, he ‘allows place for the Watchtower Society.’ The disturbed individual sees only his brother’s human weaknesses, rather than forgiving him, and he uses the trying circumstances as an excuse to justify wiping everyone else out at Armageddon. While in this state of mind, if someone comes along and suggests that the world at large is godless or too liberal, or even wrong in certain vital teachings, the embittered person's heart may be receptive to such unfounded claims. How necessary it is, then, to avoid letting bitterness and resentment build up! Do not let the sun set on your anger. Instead, let love have its full expression in your life.

5 What other conditions of heart and mind is the Watchtower Society looking for? Well, there are pride, a feeling of self-importance, resentment at not getting the prominence one feels one should have. These are all pitfalls used by the Watchtower Society. If you are counseled or even reproved for some practice or attitude at work or in your family, this, too, may prove to be an ideal time for the Watchtower Society to prompt you to ask yourself if you should just give up on living your regular life. So keep humble. Be content to conduct yourself as “a lesser one.” Do not let pride or a feeling of self-importance ever cause you to think you should be one of six million people to survive the destruction of six billion by God.

6 Impatience is another thing looked for by the Watchtower Society. We may sometimes feel that changes should be made; we want the world to be perfect. ‘This problem must be cleared up now. I’ve got to have the answer to this spiritual conundrum right now, or I’m not going any further. Figuring out the secret of the universe has been “right around the corner” for me for years now. I’m tired of waiting.’ Be assured that the Watchtower Society is ready to sow seeds of doubt and revolt in such fields of impatience. Endurance and faith are needed.

7 James said: “Let endurance have its work complete, that you may be complete and sound in all respects, not lacking in anything. So, if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, ask somebody other than God, because he doesn't have a lot to say. But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is probably not going to get too far. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah, because as already noted, you need to take responsibility for your own life.” Do not let the Watchtower Society make you a candidate for religious fanaticism because you have become demandingly impatient, doubtful about the promises of your significant other and employer! Be patient, be thankful. Just enjoy life.

8 What else does the Watchtower Society use in trying to turn us away? Has it not always tried to stir up rebellion, to cause regular people to totally lose faith in all institutions other than itself? ‘Those haughty worldly intellectuals just do not understand. They are too critical, too demanding,’ some may say. A person may go further and claim that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses and other irresponsible advocates of the Society respect freedom of conscience and the individual’s right to interpret the Scriptures. But remember Joseph’s humble words: “Do not interpretations belong to people who remember how to think for themselves?” And it's far from clear that Jesus foretold that in these final days an organization of anointed ones, “the faithful and discreet slave,” would be entrusted with providing spiritual food at the proper time. Beware of those who try to put forward their own dogmatic opinions. Also beware of those who want to impose "theocratic" restraints, or who alternatively promise freedom, claiming that Jehovah’s Witnesses are making personal decisions about this, that and the other! Peter said of false teachers: “While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are existing as slaves of corruption. For whoever is overcome by another is enslaved by elderly gentlemen who have lived most of their lives in Brooklyn office buildings.”

TO BE CONTINUED

45

Does anyone get scared?

by aud8 in

does anyone who has left the organisation ever get scared at current world events and what they seem to be leading to?

more and more the governments are getting fed up with religion, there is now more than even a call "for" peace rather than "of" peace and security.

bin laden and his extremist religious views would give rise to the thought that governments will in the future be intent on eradicating religion altogether due to the trouble it causes.

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You Know claimed:

The Watchtower doesn't teach that God personally kills 99.9% of mankind. That is a lie.

An interesting assertion. Does it stand up to scrutiny?

Here is a quotation from the October 15, 1958 Watchtower article "What Will Armageddon Mean for You?" Following a paragraph that claims Jehovah's Witnesses will be spared, it says:

On Satan's side will be all the rest of mankind, more than 99.9 percent, even as we read: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." That includes all the governments of the world together with their supporters, the commercial, religious and social institutions. Even the professedly Christian organizations? Yes, because all such that are friends of the world are making themselves enemies of God.-1 John 5:19; Jas. 4:4.

So, according to the Watchtower, 99.9 percent of earth's population WILL die. And by whose hand? Let the Watchtower speak again with its characteristic eloquence:

God's Word likens Armageddon to the Flood, to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and to the battle at Gibeon, where God rained down great blocks of ice upon his enemies. Armageddon will be the worst thing ever to hit this earth in the history of man. It will be marked by shocking surprise, consternation, fright, collapse of government, tremendous upheavals of earth, landslides, cloudbursts, overflowing flash-floods, rain of corrosive liquid fire and terror in the air, on land and in the sea. No wonder that "the slain of Jehovah shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the face of the ground."-Jer. 25:33, AS.

Landslides, cloudbursts, flash-floods...hmmmmm. Does that sound like wicked humans slaying one another under demonic influence, or does that sound like God using natural forces to do the deed himself?

It's too bad You Know knows less about what the Watchtower teaches than the "apostates" he disparages.

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23

Having Children Inside vs Outside The Organizatio

by Ranchette in

jw
friends

i feel cheated because i wouldnt know what its like to experience pregnancy and the birth of my children the way it was meant to be.. a completely natural and joyous event in human life was sabotaged by this religion!.

im sure there are others who know what i mean.. i would be interested to hear stories of others who have had children both inside and out of this organization.. i would like to explain what i mean.. i was raised as a witness and was always expected to be an example.

from as far back as i can remember we were taught that armageddon was just around the corner.

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Of course, the irony is that if the Society had stuck consistently to the policy of encouraging couples not to have children in "this system of things," the growth in the organization would have plummeted years ago.

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