How does the Society scripturally justify taking the ultra-harsh measure of disfellowshipping and shunning persons who merely enjoy smoking a few cigarettes a day?
In what way is mild smoking a gross sin that is deserving of such a harsh punishment?
How on earth does the Society make the connection between the scriptural exhortation to 'cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit' (2 Cor 7:1 & 2) to taking the extremely harsh measure of denying a smoker the right to any contact with their fellow congregation members, friends, and JW family? 2 Cor 7: 1 & 2 is hardly forceful enough to justify disfellowshipping.
In all the passages of scripture that enumerate the kinds of immoral, sinful activities that Christians must avoid there is not the slightest hint of disfellowshipping someone merely for smoking habitually.
For example, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 says "What! Do you not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God's kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God's kingdom."
1 Cor 5: 11 "But now I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man."
Galatians 5: 19, 20 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, the same way as I did forewarn you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom."
Revelation 21: 8 "But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death."
Where do they get from these scriptures that merely smoking a few cigarettes regularly is a sin gross enough in God's eyes to merit disfellowshiping?
If a JW only smokes in moderation (ie, avoids chronic chain-smoking) and takes every reasonable effort to avoid fouling up the air of those around him, how can it be justifiable to disfellowship and shun him? Besides the obvious health connotations, how is it worse than say, a JW who is chronically addicted to caffeine, drinking, say, a dozen cups a day? Chronic caffeine consumptions is arguably just as much a 'defilement of flesh and spirit' and a display of 'greediness' as a smoker who smokes, say, 6 cigarretes a day.
Surely the very most they can do to smokers is apply the 'marking' policy found at 2 Thessalonians 3: 14 & 15. And even that would be harsh and essentially unscriptural.
I think disfellowshipping smokers is a bloody outrage.
yaddayadda
JoinedPosts by yaddayadda
-
38
Disfellowshipping smokers is an outrage!
by yaddayadda inhow does the society scripturally justify taking the ultra-harsh measure of disfellowshipping and shunning persons who merely enjoy smoking a few cigarettes a day?
in what way is mild smoking a gross sin that is deserving of such a harsh punishment?
how on earth does the society make the connection between the scriptural exhortation to 'cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit' (2 cor 7:1 & 2) to taking the extremely harsh measure of denying a smoker the right to any contact with their fellow congregation members, friends, and jw family?
-
-
yaddayadda
-
59
Kansas City DC summary
by stillajwexelder inok just got back from the dc in kansas city.
i know there has been a thread on the dc already but i will post "highlights" or lowlights depending on one's opinion, of the dc in kc on this thread.. 1) bethel speakers so far 1 from patterson bethel, 1 from brooklyn bethel and 1 from walkill bethel + governing body speaker anthony morris 111. friday major talk on christ on last talk by morris.
illustarted earthquake in armenia few yaers ago.
-
-
yaddayadda
Can you elaborate on the Saturday 'false teachers' talks. What exactly did they say about the internet?
It is unbelievable how much they are banging on about higher education lately. Makes me sick. Nothing but sheer propaganda and mental manipulation but that is what the GB is all about. Why don't they wake up and sniff the roses. Even in the org hardly anyone is taking this nonsense seriously anymore. JW's flout it regularly and with impunity. Why don't they just face the fact and focus on encouraging JW's attending university to stick together and to view university as a 'field white for the harvesting', much like they encourage high school students to do. What the feck are they so scared of. Morons.
Thanks for posting this. -
10
What do you think would happen to the organization if.......
by R.F. in...they dropped the disassociation/shunning policy?
-
-
yaddayadda
If your questions is asking what would happen if they completely abandoned the disfellowshipping policy (which of course they never would) then, yes, many would stop attending almost overnight if they felt relatively certain that they could still enjoy some social contact with their JW friends and family. But if they tweaked the policy a bit to make it more reasonable and balanced then I agree with JWfacts that it would actually help them maintain their numbers.
If they merely 'marked' persons disfellowshipped under 1 Cor 5, which is in fact what the apostle Paul was counselling Christians to do at 2 Thessalonians 3: 14, 15 ('not even eating' with such persons mentioned at 1 Cor 5 means avoiding close, social contact, not total shunning. The Watchtower Society mistakenly believes the Greek word 'sunanamignumi' which the NWT translates as 'quit mixing in company' at 1 Cor 5: 9-13 and 'stop associating' at 1 Thess 3: 14, 15, means total shunning, however, 'sunanamignumi' only means intimate, close association, not general association), then the disfellowshipped person would be encouraged to hang in there and return. They would be able to receive encouraging exhortation to repent and enjoy full association again, which their very attendance at the meetings implies they are interested in doing. Coupled with that, the Society should make the following changes: reduce the length of time that someone is 'disfellowshipped', ie, instead of making them wait 6-9 months for reinstatement, make it about 3 months, tops. Also, give the person basic 'privileges' back (and why is answering up at the meetings a 'privilege' when the Watchtower Society says it is an 'expression of our faith') straight away upon reinstatement instead of making them suffer the humiliation of being unable to do these things for months and months.
But that approach is too much like common Christian decency and love for the Watchtower Society. They prefer to use disfellowshipping as a punitive, harsh measure. Disfellowshipping is a major FEAR WEAPON to keep JW's scared shitless of ever leaving. To any normal person the fear of being totally shunned by all your friends and family is a very natural, understandable fear and the GB knows this. So they are happy to maintain their ultra-harsh, legalistic and unscriptural policy on treating 'unrepentant sinners'. But what the GB don't realise is that their harsh treatment of disfellowshipped persons actually prevents many persons from returning to the organisation. They cannot endure the shame and humiliation of sitting at meetings for months on end with everyone completely ignoring them. It is one of the most emotionally insufferable experiences a human can endure...I know, because I did it. -
22
Misquoting Jesus-a must read
by dawg ini've read comments from those of you that still cling to the bible stating that there's no merit in the di vinci code's claim concerning the conference in nicea in 325. we all know that book is fiction but like all great fiction, there's some truth behind the story.
some of you have made statements that the nt was actually written by the apostles, which i refuted, and after asking for and not reciveing information from you believers any bible scholars anywhere that would go on record saying they believed the nt was in fact written by the apostles; i decided to researcht he subject on my own.
i could find no scholars that believed the apostles wrote the nt; as a matter of fact, they all said the apostles couldn't have written them.
-
-
yaddayadda
Dawg, what scholarship have you been reading besides Ehrman? Have you read any refutations of "Misquoting Jesus"?
The trick is to get a balanced view, which I doubt you have.
British NT scholar Richard Bauckham gives an excellent treatment of the authorship of the gospels in his recent book "Jesus and the Eyewitnesses - the Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony". I'd also highly recommend "Jesus remembered" by scholar James D G Dunn.
There are many good reasons why we can believe that the authors ascribed to the gospels, ie, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the actual authors (Mark and Luke obviously weren't apostles, and there is some debate on whether the 'John' of the fourth gospel was the apostle John or some other John). Just because some of the books of the NT weren't written by original apostles is hardly enough to mean they are not trustworthy. Often writers in those days would use an emanuensis to do the actual writing for them, as Paul clearly does, telling them what to write but often allowing them some latitude in the phraseology. They would then check that they approved of what was written. We can compare this to some extent with how a good personal secretary might be used today.
Contrary to Gumby's comment, the apostle Paul was indeed an apostle and was recognised by the Jerusalem based apostles as such, but he wasn't an eyewitness of Jesus life and ministry (hence why he hardly comments on Jesus life and ministry).
If you do some searching on the internet I'm sure you will find lots of arguments for and against on the subject. -
63
GB MEMBER Herd Says Just Because You're A JW It Doesn't Mean Anything!
by minimus inthere's a tape circulating around the witnesses stating that when the separation of the sheep and goats happens, witnesses shouldn't think that they will automatically be saved just because they're witnesses.
if they aren't wholesouled, then they should not expect that having one foot in the "truth" and the other in the world will let them make it through the great tribulation....herd was trying to motivate the troops!
-
-
yaddayadda
Do more til 2034!
Work work work for your salvation. -
17
Strange Talks
by AgentSmith inthe thread regarding how the ms and elders keeping up the facade while knowing its all wrong made me think of something.. this happened in the ministerial service meeting.
the ms started his part on the program but it was soon evident that he was not firing on all cylinders.
his speech was monotone, slurred even.
-
-
yaddayadda
Teenage brother giving a no.2 talk says to 'pummel your botty' instead of 'body'. Some young ones in the audience start giggling big time and one of them accidentally farts. The young dude giving the talk loses it and just walks off the platform and sits down.
-
15
Going to speak to my parents about the 'Truth"
by ThomasCovenant ini am going to approach my parents (dad an elder) later this summer with my true feelings about the wt society.
i have the cd rom and a lot of society books (plus of course the off limits wonders of google) but i happen to have just one bound volume of the watchtower 1953. it's a real gem!.
i intend to bring this book to my meeting with them as they won't be able to say it's apostate.
-
-
yaddayadda
Some great quotes there. Good luck with that dude but don't go too hard on your olds.
-
50
Sunday Notes at the District Convention An emotional plea to young ones
by truthseeker incontinue following me john 21:19. much of the program was similar to the previous two days.
the fact that jesus has appeared in almost every talk title suggests that the society is once again morphing its tactics to persuade more persons that they arent an old testament cult but an alternative christian denomination.. i repeat my previous assertion that there is a manipulative intelligence at work here.
no ordinary person could possible have such foresight and such knowledge of human behavior to think and write the things these watchtower writers do.
-
-
yaddayadda
Thanks for posting these. So no 'new light' huh?
Did you take any notes on Saturday? -
119
If Bush Used Nuclear Weapons On Iran Should He Be Tried As A War Criminal?
by frankiespeakin inwhat do you think?
should he be put on trial before a world court?
-
-
yaddayadda
Possibly if he uses the new mini-nukes, but certainly not if he can take Iran's nuclear facilities out without using them. Many experts are saying America probably has no choice but to do just that. Bushe's objective is to go all out in trying to stop the spread of nuclear weaponry and stem the scary new proliferation of nuclear weapons. The Non-Proliferation Treaty is in major jeopardy. Unfortunately America allowed Kim Il Jong to develop nuclear weaponry and hold the world to ransom. Other countries have taken notice his success. Clinton should have taken the little prick out in 1994 when he had the chance. America could not afford to let Saddam Hussein get his hands on one and it certainly cannot afford to let any other Muslim fanatic do so.
But it's all too late, the horse has bolted. Nuclear weapons only keep the peace between adversaries who prefer to keep living. The game has completely changed with Al Quaeda. Their spokesmen have said it is their right to inflict 4 million deaths on Americans, to bring about an "American Hiroshima". Al Quaeda is working to become the world's 10th nuclear power. Rumours have circulated for years that in 1998 bin Laden purchased two suitcase nuclear bombs and has stored them for the right moment. Even if he didn't, it is only a matter of time. -
14
Has anyone noticed?
by DazedAndConfused ini was reading truthseeker's post's about the summer convention.
s/he kept saying that the convention this year is focused on jesus.. i have been watching and comparing what is being said here and the things presented by the botchtower babble society, both in the local meetings and the assemblies/conventions.
it seems to me, without actually looking up post's, that what is presented to the r&f follows what is challenged here in jwd by a week/month or two.. for a quick example, this particular convention is speaking about jesus.... a lot.
-
-
yaddayadda
'Apostates' have been accusing the Society of ignoring Jesus ever since the www went live, even earlier.