Posts by onacruse

18

Y'all gotta admit, i got strong Faith

by Legendary U.2.K. in

jw
friends

<i>me & my girlfriend decided a long time ago(2 years) that we not having kids.

for reasons, but one of the reasons is because, we gonna wait till the next life(isaiah 65:17/new paradise earth), another reason is cause, we knoweth that the messiah will come back in our life time..... now that's hella strong faith, we have faith that the final destruction/peace & safety/armageddon will happen in our life time.... so we waiting!

great right?</i>

onacruse

I have no general interest in responding to such posts, but MR WISE & RIGHTEOUS, try this on for size:

1974: My wife and sitting at assembly, center 10 seats from front row. We'd had dinner with my folks the night before and shared that she was pregnant (accident, but so be it). Brother got up and gave talk about how NO GOOD LOVER OF JEHOVAH WOULD EVEN THINK ABOUT HAVING CHILDREN SOOOOOO CLOSE TO ARMAGEDDON.

My newly pregnant wife sitting beside me, my pride in looking forward to a family. IT WAS EVERYTHING I COULD DO TO KEEP FROM STANDING UP AND SCREAMING AT THAT MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your self-righteous insensitivity makes me want to puke.

28

oral sex

by lilpumpkin in

would someone who was a jw all his life (24 years) know he's not suppose to be giving/receiving oral sex?

is it possible he might not have heard about this rule?

does it not apply if the person is disfellowshipped?

onacruse

OK, all you voyeurs (LB, MrMoe, OOTO).

First, welcome LP, SW. You will find very frank discusions here. I, however, am beyond sexual fantasy (yeah, right).

WTS has had several reversals re: marital sexual behavior. Homosexuality was grounds for divorce, wasn't, now is. Bestiality was, wasn't, now is. Oral sex was, wasn't and now is (as I recall). Private confession of partner was, wasn't, and now is [you must submit a letter to cong]. If you are now doing any of these, you may be df'd (or not ri'd, assuming the elders ask, which they probably will, if only to stimulate themselves).

Assuming your interests are sincere, consider this: Hebrew has 2 primary words for prohibited sexual activity, zah-nah (=fornication) and nah-aph (=adultery). Greek also has 2: porneia (=fornication) and moixaw (=adultery) [These words have various prognate derivatives] All these words apply to sex with another human outside of marriage (See e.g. Vine's Dictionary of New Testament Words). You can consult any Hebrew and Greek concordance (reply if you need refernces) to confirm that in no Scriptural passage are any of these words defined in terms of sexual practices within the marital arrangement.

Enjoy the freedom.

Edited by - onacruse on 8 July 2002 13:3:21

9

A Question I've Always Wondered About!

by patricia in

i've often wondered about god's promise to hagar, ishmael"s mother in genesis 16:10 and 17:20 where he promises that he will greatly multiply her descendants making them too numerous to count, and also telling abraham that he would also bless ishmael and "he would certainly produce twelve chieftains, and i will make him become a great nation".

verse 25 also mentions that ishmael was circumcised which would make him part of the covenant made between jehovah and abraham.

in genesis 21:13, after telling abraham to drive hagar and ishmael out of his camp as sarah told him to do, god promised abraham that he would make a nation of ishmael too, because he was also abraham's son.

onacruse

Good question!

17:20 (expansion of 16:10) promises 2 things:

1) Ishmael will have 12 rulers in his blood line (as shown in 25:13-16; and thus fulfilled);

2) Ishmael is/will be blessed. Moffatt translates:"...As for Ishmael...I have a blessing for him, I will make him fruitful..." NAB reads " As for Ishmael...I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile..." The comma vs. period between "him" and "I" makes a big difference. If the period is correct, we take the blessing as separate from the fruitfulness. If the comma is correct, we take the blessing as shown in the fertility (and thus include 21:13, 18). This problem of "asseverative" vs "conjunctive" is very common in translation. It is well known that neither Hebrew nor Greek have punctation marks in the original Biblical languages, so this decision is SOLELY due to translator/theological preference.

It would be "easier" for many to accept the conjunctive sense, so that the current large Arab population would in and of itself prove the fulfillment of this blessing. Nothing more would be expected.

But what if the asseverative sense is taken? Then there would remain an expansive Biblical blessing upon Arabs that would mark them also a God-selected people. Paul's remarks at Gal 4:22-31 seem to exclude that possibility: Hagar (with her Ishmaelite offspring) are slaves (hardly what we would consider a blessing).

Perhaps the original blessing on Abram is most telling: "...and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Gn 12:3) IMO there is no continuing blessing upon either Arabs OR Jews. God has lived up to His promises to each group, and it is up to them (as well as all others) to take the next step. That next step is to accept the ultimate fulfiller of God's blessing on all mankind.

Not a JW, but definitely a Christian,

Craig

PS: Patricia, welcome to this group!

28

Witnesses Not Budging on 1914

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

just attended the sunday of the zealous kingdom proclaimers district convention in manchester, england and during the final talk we had an update on the world situation as it relates to jehovah's witnesses.

the speaker was peter ellis, a member of the london bethel branch committee.. he stated that many had been waiting for armageddon for some years and some have become disappointed that it hasn't yet arrived, and that newer jw's did not seem to have the same degree of faith as some of the old-timers in the faith, hence this was of serious concern.

then he said something along the lines of 1914 being set in stone and that the organization was not going to get any new light on this key doctrine, hence we can be sure that armageddon is very near.. interesting don't you think?

onacruse

WTS does not need to ever change the meaning of 1914.

They can continue for decades (as indeed they already have) to tweak subsequent events and interpretations, and the "generation" change was only the latest. Remember the original teaching on the "great tribulation"? In 1970 (as I recall) it was yanked completely away from 1914-18 and put right up against a future Armageddon. I distinctly remember how completely thrilled I was at this "new truth" and it never even crossed my mind that WTS was doing anything objectionable. 1914 was still sacrosanct, Armageddon was still right around the corner, so what harm was done? Same with the "generation" change. It was the last straw for me, but by far the majority of JWs I talked to after saw absolutely no problem with it, because (again) 1914 is sacrosanct and Armageddon is still right around the corner.

Virtually every major JW doctrine hinges on, or is impacted by, 1914. The Parousia, God's rejection of Babylon the Great and "special selection" of the WTS, the existence of a remnant, the "theocratization" of the organization, their spiritualized interpretations (of Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, the minor prophets, Revelation), &&& would all fall to the ground if 1914 is dropped (pun intended). Even their adamant Arianism derives from the authority of the "saving Remnant" to provide specialized and unique interpretations of Scripture, and that authority started esp in 1914.

Seventh-day Adventists have a 70 head start on WTS, and how is it going for them with respect to 1844? No problem. "During the early part of the nineteenth century many Christians...expected some very significant events to take place [in 1844]...the severity of thier disappointment was in proportion to the nature of the predicted event. Obviously the disappointment of those who expected Christ to return in 1844 was more traumatic than that of those who looked for the return of the Jews to Palestine. As a result of their disappointment, many gave up the study of prophecy...Some however, continued to study this prophecy...continuing to look to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary on thier behalf. Rich new insights into that ministry rewarded their efforts. They discovered that...[t]he prophetic time calculations were indeed correct. Their mistake...was in their understanding of what event was to take place...New light from Christ's sanctuary ministry turned their disappointment into hope and joy." (Seventh-day Adventists Believe...; Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1988, p. 324) WTS continually does the same disingenuous spin control to retain 1914 as a pivotal date; what consequences may they expect? Well, Seventh-day Adventists are still cruising right along (in 1999 over 10,000,000 members).

IMO, the meaning of 1914 for JWs will never be significantly changed and will not present any enduring problem.

Delayed no more,

Craig

13

Question for JWs: What `Study Aid' is the Best?

by Room 215 in

jw
friends

calling all jw lurkers:.

after the bible (i assume you all agree that it's a christian's single most important souce of information), what's the next most important publication?

how many of you agree that it's a concordance?

onacruse

What an oxymoron (no, not you Farkel ). If a mystery is finished, it's no longer a mystery and its meaning is obvious to all, but if not, then it's still a mystery. But providing mysterious explanations to unfinished mysteries is an FDS specialty.

As for study aids, why? FDS sees all, tells all, judges all. Try using ANY study aid to reason w/WTS, but masochism is a prerequisite. The main thing a KH library is used for is for committee meetings.

IW: I'm surprised! In my 40 yrs, I saw maybe 6 dubs that even had/used a Bible other than NWT, and even then only if it provided an "agreeable" reading. For myself, I studied in and commented about the Bible in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, German and Russian. My sincere Bible study was tolerated (sometimes even appreciated) when it agreed w/WTS, but was worthless when in even the slightest disagreement w/ "revealed truth."

Mystified One,

Craig

12

Sheep, Goats, and Nonsense

by metatron in

jw
friends

so, you wanna leave the 'truth' and drift away?.

well, brother elder is gonna show up at your house and tell you:.

that's why they are hungry, naked, etc.!!

onacruse

I love this thread! Thoughts from the Twilight Zone:

Whatever the Bible says about faith/works/salvation, a great number (majority?) of us on this board live in countries that reflect the Puritanical work ethic. Our interpretation of the Bible can be an intellectual exercise, but the pressures of our individual social groups will probably (as history demonstrates) have at least as much influence over our actions.

I say I believe in God as my Creator, but how does my present circumstance in society show that God approves of/has blessed me (in "my society")? I say I believe Jesus loves me, but what works to benefit my fellow man (read "my society") did I perform today to show that I love him? I say I am a Nazi, but how many non-Aryans did I expose last month to prove my loyalty to the Nationalist Socialist Party?

Max Weber's Die Protestantische Ethik und der Geist des Kapitalismus (The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism) is a well-known and still hotly debated presentation of this sociology of religion. His primary student R.H. Tawney (Religion and the Rise of Capitalism; Harcourt, Brace & Co, 1926) wrote (p. 200): "Overwhelmed by a sense of his "Ultimate End," the Puritan cannot rest, nevertheless, in reflection upon it. The contemplation of God...is a blessedness too great for sinners, who must not only contemplate God, but glorify him by their work in a world given over to the powers of darkness." (Italics added)

"Our society" demands that we legitimize our convictions by works leading to success (however that may be measured).

The great railroad magnates and land barons of the 19th-20th centuries were, in the opinion of many, clearly blessed by God (as measured by their fortunes), and all the more so because of their philanthropic foundations. The hundreds/thousands that they crushed while building their empires were socially discounted as conversely "unblessed" by God, and deserving of their fates.

So also JWs: They say works do not make salvation, but increased publishing activity, more return visits, more Bible Studies, more baptisms, increasing membership, rising through the ranks (up to the glass ceiling of being "anointed") are all required to prove that God is blessing them. As Ray commented in COC (4th ed., p. 252-3): "This drop [in 1977-78] membership, more than any other factor, seemed to carry weight with the Governing Body members." The numbers MUST PROVE that God is with us!

SO: Dubs are saved by faith (theoretically) but by works (actually).

Christian love,

Craig

PS: Speaking of Mt 25:31-46, consider vs. 40: "...whatever you did for [to] one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." Compare 24:49: "...he begins to beat his fellow slaves..." Why beat a slave? To kill him? Probably not (not financially advantageous). To get more work out of him? Very possibly. To get more work out of the other (now fearful) slaves? I think most likely.

Edited by - onacruse on 7 July 2002 14:48:45

45

wt 8/15/03: Easing Nature - Is it for Christians?

by Scully in

jw
friends

easing nature is it for christians?

easing nature the very phrase itself brings to mind the odious product of this activity.

yet, many people have the understanding that this natural bodily function is a practice in which true christians may engage.

onacruse

I wish I had gotten in line with the new light. Instead, I harbored private opinions and eased myself whenever I thought no one would see. Naturally, I felt very guilty, which only increased my need to ease. Soon I became addicted to easing, regularly indulging myself in this detrimental behavior. Sometimes I would ease 6 times a day. I even deteriorated to the point of watching other people ease.

Needless to say, my easing was discovered, and the elders requested my presence at a committee meeting. I prayed for help with my easing, and was looking forward to loving assistance. When I arrived (having just eased outside the KH), the elders laid me out on the library table and took turns with a colonoscope. After several lengthy examinations, they found absolutely nothing, which was more than enough evidence, and now I'm history!

My life now would be so much easier if I had not been easing!

Edited by - onacruse on 7 July 2002 2:36:35

11

KEEP THROWING THOSE STARFISHES!

by new boy in

jw
friends

all i can say is i take my hat off to the many posters here.

you have no idea how much you folks are helping people!.

i only visited this site once before i left the borg back in sept. 2001, but what a impact wow!.

onacruse

Hi, DR. I'm in Beaverton, just west of Portland. Been around this area for almost 40 yrs.

You have relatives/friends up here?

11

KEEP THROWING THOSE STARFISHES!

by new boy in

jw
friends

all i can say is i take my hat off to the many posters here.

you have no idea how much you folks are helping people!.

i only visited this site once before i left the borg back in sept. 2001, but what a impact wow!.

onacruse

LOL Else: Let crab bite you (your choice of body part) and won't notice starfish on head.

21

To Applaud or Throw Up - Which?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i pointed out the evidence that the society is sneaking away from.

the blood issue to a 'loyal' relative.. she replied "well, that's good then, right?".

sometimes it just takes your breath away!.

onacruse

Hello all!

Waiting: couldn't get a handle on your quote, but will keep searching. Reminds me of the first $1B corporation I worked for; had a rep for "eating its own young."

Glad you mentioned the Amish. Reminded me of another book in my library: Amish Society (John A. Hostetler; John Hopkins University Press, 1968). The author was "[b]orn a younger child of an Amish family which was later to be excommunicated largely because of the father's alleged worldly pride in a fine registered dairy herd, he [the author] was socialized to the norm which taboos education beyond the eighth grade. He is now holder of the Ph.D. degree in sociology..." I couldn't believe the incredible similarities between the Amish and JWs.

Excerpts:

"Persons who leave the strict Old Order Amish church to join other churches are treated as apostates and must be banned. No member may knowingly eat at the table with an expelled member or have normal work or domestic relations with him." (p. 14)

"As soon as the law will allow, Amish children are taken out of school for work at home." (p. 19)

"Differences in religious conformity began to emerge among the Swiss Brethren in the seventeenth century...The controversy centered around three specific norms of practice: the Meidung or shunning...[The Reist group] agreed that excommunicated members should not be admitted to the communion service, but they could not accept [the founder] Ammann's strict position of Meidung, which said it should be observed between marriage partners and in eating...some even taught that husband and wife should separate." (pp. 31-32)

Under the subheading The Stages of Sectarian Emergence (pp. 35-36), he outlines the following conditions (a virtual history of WTS):

A sectarian movement must establish an ideology different from that of the parent group...

The articulation of differences in belief by an enthusiastic leader claiming divine authority...

A sense of urgency is vocalized by an authoritarian personality who imposes negative sanction on the opposing persons or groups...

The goals of a sect must be specific...

A sect must establish cultural separatism...

OK, I'll stop quoting :-). Ultimately, their internal struggles resulted in several divergent groups with varying degrees of stricture. Members can "jump" back and forth between some of these groups and still be considered at least quasi-Amish. Or, they (typically the younger ones) can choose a more liberal option and become Mennonites (the fundamental practices and beliefs are almost identical, but control of personal behavior and enforcement of Meidung are both much less strict among Mennonites). That is how they make their own "accommodation."

THANK GOD, THANK GOD, THANK GOD I am no longer a part of that kind of group.