Posts by Earnest

29

WT vs Norway - WT sends letter to the goverment saying they have now changed their practice on DF. Asks for their funding back

by liam in

disfellowshipping is slowly fading into the night.. last efforts to survive.. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1gh3ilq/wt_vs_norway_wt_sends_letter_to_the_goverment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button.

Earnest

Earnest : It could be genuine as these errors are not impossible but I think unlikely.

I have now received a copy of the letter from the Norwegian Ministry of Children and Families and can confirm it is genuine.

29

WT vs Norway - WT sends letter to the goverment saying they have now changed their practice on DF. Asks for their funding back

by liam in

disfellowshipping is slowly fading into the night.. last efforts to survive.. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1gh3ilq/wt_vs_norway_wt_sends_letter_to_the_goverment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button.

Earnest

St George of England : If this letter is genuine, did the WT Society make this blunder or is it the translator?

I noticed that blunder too, St George. It is in the "original" copy of the letter which makes me wonder whether the letter is genuine. The email address at the top left is also not normally shown in Watchtower letters to the Norwegian government. The signature is a bit different to Pedersen's usual signature (leaving out the 'n' in Jørgen). It could be genuine as these errors are not impossible but I think unlikely.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Earnest

Blotty, the language in the Bible isn't unique in some way but was also used by the people contemporary with the writers. The numerous Greek papyri found at Oxyrhynchus (in Egypt) help us to understand how certain Greek words were used in the NT. When there is more than one meaning to a word then, of course, you have to understand it in context.

The Bible lexicon which you quote (Thayer's) says that in the Bible ktizo means "to create: of God creating the world, man etc" but it is also means in a figurative sense "to found [or build or make] a city" as at 1 Esdras 4:53 :

"...and that all who came from Babylonia to build [or, make] the city [κτίσαι τὴν πόλιν] should have their freedom"

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Earnest

LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Vaticanus) (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209, p.722)

LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Sinaiticus) (https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx)

εκτιϲεν (from ktizo) which Strong's concordance (https://biblehub.com/greek/2936.htm) describes as "2936 ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was "not there before" (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin ("found"), especially what is habitable or useful."

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

Earnest

SheEatsDragons : That's too bad that you [Vienne] don't even have a copy of your own "mom's" obituary.

Since Vienne is a pseudonym (just like SheEatsDragons and FreeTheMasons and EasyPrompt) it's obvious she is not going to share her mum's obituary. She is entitled to the same privacy we all have on this platform. Even so, unless you have evidence that the original Vienne didn't die or that Annie isn't her daughter, you are sinking to a very low-level to criticise her because she doesn't produce her mother's obituary.

13

Does maths prove the bible is wrong?

by joey jojo in

there might be a few that find this post boring, because, you know - its maths.. i like maths but im not a mathematician or condsider myself any type of expert on the subject.. there is a branch of maths called propositional logic that is used widely in computers and computer programming that allows computers to make decisions based on certain conditions.

for example: if a condition exists, then do something.

like: if the a button is pressed, then the letter a will appear on the screen.

Earnest

Since we are discussing mathematics I should tell you about one of my favourite clerics, John Colenso, the first Bishop of Natal, 1853-1883. Prior to becoming a rector (in 1846) he had studied at Cambridge, got a first class in mathematics, had written manuals on algebra (1841) and arithmetic (1843), and had taught maths at Harrow and Cambridge. After he was appointed Bishop of Natal, which was then a British colony, he went over there, published the first Zulu grammar and English/Zulu dictionary, and established a missionary station.

His African students there asked him questions about Noah's Ark, the Flood, the crossing of the Red Sea, the Exodus etc which caused him to re-examine the Pentateuch and the book of Joshua. Being a mathematician he looked at the number of Israelites at the time of the Exodus and asked very pertinent questions whether this was possible, finally writing some volumes on The Pentateuch and Book of Joshua Critically Examined. Needless to say this created a bit of a scandal in England and you can read more about him here, but his work on the Pentateuch (linked above) is still well worth reading.

21

Is the JW version of The Lord's Supper really a Parody?

by Sea Breeze in

a black mass is a ceremony celebrated by various satanic groups.

it ... is intentionally a sacrilegious and blasphemous parody of a catholic mass.

- wikipedia.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Jehovah's Witnesses can't wait for you to die

Funny thing to say when their whole raison d'être is to spread the good news that God is not wanting anyone to perish.

5

Spiritual Paradise?? (ex)JW Elder to stand trial for multiple rapes over a 10-year period.

by Balaamsass2 in

former jehovah's witness elder committed to stand trial accused of sunshine coast rapes, sexual abuse.

a former jehovah's witness elder has been committed to stand trial for raping and sexually abusing young men on the sunshine coast over a 10-year period.police arrested 62-year-old mooloolaba man peter mitchelson in august 2022 and charged him with more than 50 sexual offences, including 21 counts of rape that allegedly occurred at various locations on the sunshine coast and in brisbane from 2008 to 2018.. the charges relate to five adult male complainants known to mr mitchelson through the jehovah's witness faith.. a committal hearing at maroochydore today heard mr mitchelson allegedly used his seniority as a former congregation elder to coerce the younger men to perform sexual acts for his gratification.. police said the acts were non-consensual and made the alleged victims feel "used, controlled, and lied to".. mr mitchelson was committed to stand trial in the district court on 53 charges, while charges of incest and torture were dismissed due to a lack of evidence.. 'positive affirmations' allegedly escalated.

the court heard the majority of alleged offending started with mr mitchelson advising alleged victims on how to use '"positive affirmations" to improve their confidence.. police said initial meetings with mr mitchelson involved alleged victims standing in front of a mirror repeating the phrase: "i'm strong.

Earnest

This was already discussed here as well as ...

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5071208429649920/senior-jw-member-australia-charged-sex-crimes-torture

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5138666075193344/another-bad-egg

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6247931447869440/sunshine-coast-evil-elder

167

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

Earnest

Do I imagine it or did I detect a shadow of a doubt?

aqwsed1234 : The fact that "theos" lacks the article in John 1:1c does not automatically make it indefinite.

aqwsed1234 : In this context, the absence of the article does not necessarily mean that "theos" should be indefinite.

aqwsed1234 : Even scholars like Murray Harris acknowledge that “a god” would be grammatically possible but theologically inappropriate ...

aqwsed1234 : Even Jason BeDuhn, while sympathetic to the NWT in some respects, acknowledges that the Word was divine (not “a god”) better captures the original Greek intent...

but

Jason BeDuhn : "The meaning is the same in either case ..." (Truth in Translation, 2003, p.124)

Philip B. Harner : At a number of points in this study we have seen that anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the verb may be primarily qualitative in force yet may also have some connotation of definiteness. The categories of qualitativeness and definiteness, that is, are not mutually exclusive, and frequently it is a delicate exegetical issue for the interpreter to decide which emphasis a Greek writer had in mind...In John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent that the noun cannot be regarded as definite. ("Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1", Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 92, No.1, p.87)

So, in fact, you agree that John 1:1c can be translated as "the Word was a god" but it doesn't fit your theology.

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

Earnest

A Separate Identity [Schulz and Vienne, 2020], volume two, page 34 :

This view [that if the Father was in heaven and Jesus was to receive his disciples home to himself, then they would join him in heaven] became an issue for [George] Stetson [1814-1879] in 1875, and it is likely that it was also the topic of discussion among the Allegheny Bible Study Group. Stetson wrote a lengthy article for The Restitution defending the traditional Age-to-Come belief system which taught that the earth was man's proper home. ...

Another probable route to Russell and Barbour's belief that a little flock would be called to heaven while a remainder of mankind would find blessings in an earthly paradise is Dunbar Isidore Heath's [1816-1888] The Future Human Kingdom of Christ which profoundly influenced Henry Dunn [1801-1878] and, we think, through the Storrs-Dunn connection it influenced Russell.

My Note : In a supplement to the first edition of Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, Russell writes :

“Bros. George Storrs, Henry Dunn and others were preaching and writing of ‘the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets’ (Acts 3:21) and that ‘In the ages to come, God would show the exceeding riches of his grace.’ (Ephesians 2:7)”

It should also be noted that Storrs started a magazine entitled The Bible Examiner [1843-1880] and Russell wrote articles for this magazine in the 1870s until Storr's death in 1879.