in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Vaticanus) (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209, p.722)
LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Sinaiticus) (https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx)
εκτιϲεν (from ktizo) which Strong's concordance (https://biblehub.com/greek/2936.htm) describes as "2936 ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was "not there before" (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin ("found"), especially what is habitable or useful."
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
SheEatsDragons : That's too bad that you [Vienne] don't even have a copy of your own "mom's" obituary.
Since Vienne is a pseudonym (just like SheEatsDragons and FreeTheMasons and EasyPrompt) it's obvious she is not going to share her mum's obituary. She is entitled to the same privacy we all have on this platform. Even so, unless you have evidence that the original Vienne didn't die or that Annie isn't her daughter, you are sinking to a very low-level to criticise her because she doesn't produce her mother's obituary.
there might be a few that find this post boring, because, you know - its maths.. i like maths but im not a mathematician or condsider myself any type of expert on the subject.. there is a branch of maths called propositional logic that is used widely in computers and computer programming that allows computers to make decisions based on certain conditions.
for example: if a condition exists, then do something.
like: if the a button is pressed, then the letter a will appear on the screen.
Since we are discussing mathematics I should tell you about one of my favourite clerics, John Colenso, the first Bishop of Natal, 1853-1883. Prior to becoming a rector (in 1846) he had studied at Cambridge, got a first class in mathematics, had written manuals on algebra (1841) and arithmetic (1843), and had taught maths at Harrow and Cambridge. After he was appointed Bishop of Natal, which was then a British colony, he went over there, published the first Zulu grammar and English/Zulu dictionary, and established a missionary station.
His African students there asked him questions about Noah's Ark, the Flood, the crossing of the Red Sea, the Exodus etc which caused him to re-examine the Pentateuch and the book of Joshua. Being a mathematician he looked at the number of Israelites at the time of the Exodus and asked very pertinent questions whether this was possible, finally writing some volumes on The Pentateuch and Book of Joshua Critically Examined. Needless to say this created a bit of a scandal in England and you can read more about him here, but his work on the Pentateuch (linked above) is still well worth reading.
a black mass is a ceremony celebrated by various satanic groups.
it ... is intentionally a sacrilegious and blasphemous parody of a catholic mass.
- wikipedia.
Sea Breeze : Jehovah's Witnesses can't wait for you to die
Funny thing to say when their whole raison d'être is to spread the good news that God is not wanting anyone to perish.
former jehovah's witness elder committed to stand trial accused of sunshine coast rapes, sexual abuse.
a former jehovah's witness elder has been committed to stand trial for raping and sexually abusing young men on the sunshine coast over a 10-year period.police arrested 62-year-old mooloolaba man peter mitchelson in august 2022 and charged him with more than 50 sexual offences, including 21 counts of rape that allegedly occurred at various locations on the sunshine coast and in brisbane from 2008 to 2018.. the charges relate to five adult male complainants known to mr mitchelson through the jehovah's witness faith.. a committal hearing at maroochydore today heard mr mitchelson allegedly used his seniority as a former congregation elder to coerce the younger men to perform sexual acts for his gratification.. police said the acts were non-consensual and made the alleged victims feel "used, controlled, and lied to".. mr mitchelson was committed to stand trial in the district court on 53 charges, while charges of incest and torture were dismissed due to a lack of evidence.. 'positive affirmations' allegedly escalated.
the court heard the majority of alleged offending started with mr mitchelson advising alleged victims on how to use '"positive affirmations" to improve their confidence.. police said initial meetings with mr mitchelson involved alleged victims standing in front of a mirror repeating the phrase: "i'm strong.
This was already discussed here as well as ...
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5071208429649920/senior-jw-member-australia-charged-sex-crimes-torture
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5138666075193344/another-bad-egg
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6247931447869440/sunshine-coast-evil-elder
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.
but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?
new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
Do I imagine it or did I detect a shadow of a doubt?
aqwsed1234 : The fact that "theos" lacks the article in John 1:1c does not automatically make it indefinite.
aqwsed1234 : In this context, the absence of the article does not necessarily mean that "theos" should be indefinite.
aqwsed1234 : Even scholars like Murray Harris acknowledge that “a god” would be grammatically possible but theologically inappropriate ...
aqwsed1234 : Even Jason BeDuhn, while sympathetic to the NWT in some respects, acknowledges that the Word was divine (not “a god”) better captures the original Greek intent...
but
Jason BeDuhn : "The meaning is the same in either case ..." (Truth in Translation, 2003, p.124)
Philip B. Harner : At a number of
points in this study we have seen that anarthrous predicate nouns preceding the
verb may be primarily qualitative in force yet may also have some connotation
of definiteness. The categories of qualitativeness and definiteness, that is,
are not mutually exclusive, and frequently it is a delicate exegetical issue
for the interpreter to decide which emphasis a Greek writer had in mind...In
John 1:1 I think that the qualitative force of the predicate is so prominent
that the noun cannot be regarded as definite. ("Qualitative Anarthrous
Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1", Journal of Biblical Literature,
Vol. 92, No.1, p.87)
So, in fact, you agree that John 1:1c can be translated as "the Word was a god" but it doesn't fit your theology.
the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.
even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.
yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.
A Separate Identity [Schulz and Vienne, 2020], volume two, page 34 :
This view [that if the Father was in heaven and Jesus was to receive his disciples home to himself, then they would join him in heaven] became an issue for [George] Stetson [1814-1879] in 1875, and it is likely that it was also the topic of discussion among the Allegheny Bible Study Group. Stetson wrote a lengthy article for The Restitution defending the traditional Age-to-Come belief system which taught that the earth was man's proper home. ...
Another probable route to Russell and Barbour's belief that a little flock would be called to heaven while a remainder of mankind would find blessings in an earthly paradise is Dunbar Isidore Heath's [1816-1888] The Future Human Kingdom of Christ which profoundly influenced Henry Dunn [1801-1878] and, we think, through the Storrs-Dunn connection it influenced Russell.
My Note : In a supplement to the first edition of Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, Russell writes :
“Bros. George Storrs, Henry Dunn and others were preaching and writing of ‘the times of restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets’ (Acts 3:21) and that ‘In the ages to come, God would show the exceeding riches of his grace.’ (Ephesians 2:7)”
It should also be noted that Storrs started a magazine entitled The Bible Examiner [1843-1880] and Russell wrote articles for this magazine in the 1870s until Storr's death in 1879.
anybody heard of this?
a lot on social media are saying she was jw.. https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10213113850013380&id=1007975796&set=p.10213113850013380.
http://leftmeltdowns.blogspot.com/2018/11/missing-teen-linda-marie-sex-trafficking.html?m=1.
SheEatsDragons, I notice you joined the forum an hour ago and have already posted three times. You don't happen to be a poster that was recently deleted by any chance, do you? Especially reposting Take the Money and Run!!
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.
but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?
new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
aqwsed12345 : As you rightly noted, Justin says that Christ is "not the God above whom there is no other god" (Dialogue with Trypho 56), but this does not imply subordination in essence.
This is what Justin writes :
I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another god and lord subject [hupo] to the Maker of all things; who is also called an angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things— above whom there is no other God [huper hon allos theos ouk esti] — wishes to announce to them.
To be clear, hupo means "under" and when used of a person it expresses subjection or dependence. The similar word, huper (used in "above [huper] whom there is no other god"), means "over" and in this context it expresses superiority.
So Justin says that there is a god and lord subject to the Maker of all things (who is not subject to any other god). To say that this does not imply subordination is to ignore the meaning of plain Greek.
for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.
but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?
new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.
LV101 : Was the non-trinity belief handed down to JWs (Russell) via 2nd Day Adventism/England?
One of the most thorough publications on the early history of JWs, A Separate Identity, Volume 2, by Schulz and Vienne (who was the original poster known as Vienne and the mother of Annie, the current incumbent) says (p.xiv) :
[Russell's] rejection of the Trinity connects directly to the Colonial Era and early Republic Era belief of non-Trinitarian Congregational churches in New England and anti-Trinitarian agitation among British clergy...
Samuel Clarke's Boyle lecture on the Trinity found a place in American libraries; Priestley's multivolume work on the Trinity was circulated in America ... In America, in the aftermath of the Great Awakening, many of those influenced by it rejected Trinitarian doctrine, some becoming Socinian and others adopted Sebalianism [sic] or Arianism. New Light rejection of Trinitarianism was still an issue in the 1820s, and the issue persisted into the 1840s. Grew and Storrs both rejected the Trinity. We cannot suggest that Russell derived his Subordination doctrine (a non-Trinitarian belief system similar to Arianism) from Adventism. When some Adventists entered the discussion, they did so as part of a larger trend.
The Proclaimers book (p.44) also lists truth lovers throughout the centuries, such as Thomas Emlyn (1663-c.1741), who
accepted the Bible as God's Word and rejected the Trinity. Henry Grew (1781-1862) and George Storrs (1796-1879) not only accepted the Bible and rejected the Trinity but also expressed appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ.
