Blues brother is right. Yet, I encountered so many elders who did this very thing. According to procedure, elders only need to establish porneia. Whether a person orgasmed or not has never been a criteria, although elders continue to justify the importance of that question. My take? They are pervs.....
AllTimeJeff
JoinedPosts by AllTimeJeff
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21
question about judicial committee meetings
by peaches ina couple of young people about 20years old,,,,were involved with each....they went too far with the being alone situation....not sure if they reported themselves or some one else did...reguardless.....i guess the elders asked both of them extremely embarrassing questions and very very personal ones...like what kind of underwear she wore,,,,,did she have an orgasm.....etc etc..... i do not understand why this is done?????
they went too far,,,acknowledged it,,,,met with the elders...why the deep personal questions??
they already had all the information they needed...... i should know these things,,,being in the borg for 30 years...but i don't,,,i really do not understand why????
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14
It's Not A Hollywood Movie, It's Your Story
by AllTimeJeff ina philosophical ending.. in the end, real life doesn't have happy endings for the happy.
it's even better, because its real.
you are real.
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AllTimeJeff
Interesting how this thread has evolved, but I think the discussion of our movies/stories not being over has an over-arching lesson.
Not everyone will get the 7 Habits concepts. We are all different. What it provides to me and others is a framework from which to rebuild and refocus after leaving JW's.
I see and speak often of the void thats left, esp for those who were kicked out only to learn of the lies that JW's teach. That is the biggest thing that breaks my heart. I don't think it matters ultimately if you did it Covey's way, or Dale Carnagies way, whatever.
One of the things that stuck with me that Covey wrote about is having a purpose for our lives. After we leave JW's that is so important to NOT ignore. I realize that some will always try to do what they were never allowed to do, whether that be drugs, sex, alcohol, etc. It isn't my place to judge, except to say that "sowing your oates" can lead to some unalterable consequences, but, maybe thats the road your story will take you.
To fill that void, to be "spiritual" even if that means not being religious or having a religion, is important.
The need to take care of yourself, something both JW's and former JW's neglect at times, is encapsulated in Habit 7.
Again, I can endorse this book as a healthy way to get started if you are leaving. Ultimately, it doesn't matter if someone wants to really get into it or not, I think its good to know that there are many healthy mental and emotional constructs to implement, if we only avail ourselves of them.
Reading. Gotta love it!
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Shunned to death!
by koolaid-man inthousands of jehovah's witnesses, and the number could be as high as 100,000, are being disfellowshipped each year in the watchtower org.
their religious policy on disfellowshipping is not biblical, and the punishment is cruel and inhumane.
the punishment of being shunned has many consequences.
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AllTimeJeff
Koolaid-man, you are right, this thread sent me to your site, so I could give an up to date opinion of it.
I am sure you are aware that hits on an internet site, while important, is not the key metric. New and unique visitors to your site is the statistic that you need to pay attention to. If you see that going well, more power to you.
There is a lot of factual and interesting items you have there. The music, and some of the opinions you have expressed on that site, presented as they are, still seem over the top to me.
Having said that, I know that you are passionate about this, and I do wish you the best. I can't honestly say that I agree with your approach, but if you get a few who gravitate to that sort of approach, then that is a win.
I still believe that you need to lose the music and present some of the items more reasonably. But, to each their own. Peace!
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Crimes Committed by Jehovah's Witnesses...... and Catholics, and Baptists and......
by AllTimeJeff inplease allow me a small opinion, sparked by some drum bangers who are determined to expose and "bring down" the wtbts.
one way that this is done is by attaching a persons religion to a crime report.. for example, rapists who are jw's are frequently brought up here.
child molesters and pedophiles.
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AllTimeJeff
For this thread, I am going to respond Flipper style, because well, y'all have already got me thinking again....
JAMIEBOWERS: Great point, and I think it does serve a purpose. If I might be allowed to amend the spirit of what I meant by that, it is simply to not sensationalize a story beyond what it is. That does happen every now and again. To a non JW, I know they don't' understand, and there is really nothing to be done about it. For JW's who stumble upon here, I guess it just depends on how honest they can be with themselves if they are willing to click on a link to a news article and see for themselves how the occupants of their spiritual paradise tend to act.
SCOTTIEBEAR77, that is a fair point you make. I have observed the breaking of laws when it is convenient for the local elders on more then one occasion. In each case, what is good for the organization trumps secular law.
YESIDID AND MICKEY MOUSE, I type this on a netbook computer, and as a result, the spellcheck function is something I occasionally screw up on. I find myself editing many posts after I post them. This is my JWN computer for better or for worse right now..... But I don't mind per se....
WOBBLE: Thanks for your words. I certainly don't want to prevent anyone from posting anything, but as an opinion piece, I did want to express that these things put out there in a reasonable manner would tend to work better, imo. It has to be admitted that most JW's are decent folks who are being exploited and are very misled. Having the belief and conviction that they do probably feeds undesirable personality traits for some. I know it did with me. So to me, being reasonable is important when these news stories come up. Of course, the pedophile issue should always be given the widest publicity, as it should with the Catholic Church, LDS, and other religions.
BLONDIE: The exposure of any crime that illustrates why JW's aren't what they claim to be has value. No doubt!
WTWIZARD, the way the GB has shamefully hidden and covered up what should be exposed was a major reason why I left. If there was any sliver of hope that things could change, I could see myself back then talking me into staying. But I knew things weren't going to change, I had seen elders leave/resign over pedophile issues and how horribly they were handled, how the victims families were treated, and I wanted no further part in that.
Thanks for the opinions expressed! (Mickey Mouse, I think the spelling is correct on this one.... )
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18
The four stages of growth of JWD/JWN
by Lady Lee inevery now and then i think how nice it would be if the board could go back to the way it was in some earlier time of its existence.
when i was in university one of the main focuses of the counseling program i was in was group development and how it changes over time.
jwn is like any group.
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AllTimeJeff
Hi Lee, great thread. Thank you in particular for the 4th stage, and putting into words how I see the board now. In fact, that is where I am at.
Having gone to Gilead with my eyes already open somewhat, and my mind open, I got to meet the GB, got the "special" training, and I knew it was crap. I didn't need the function of the early days. What I personally get out of JWN is twofold.
First of all, the contributions of early posters like Farkel (he must be really really old! ) Alan F, Randy Watters with freeminds, and others, was to give me a touchstone to confirm what I saw, so that I wasn't alone. I have to mention Crisis of Conscience too. Without those things, the act of both physically AND mentally leaving would have been much harder.
But I find myself with less and less to expose as a result. Everyone on this board pretty much knows about the scandals and the hypocrisies. There are many ex elders, at least two former missionaries that I know of (Lance and myself) Barbara Anderson posts here. It has caused me in the last several months to rethink my reasons for even being here. Because I don't have anything new to add. And, now over 3 years removed, and with the GB's proven history of changing dogma and procedure, I am no longer an "up to date" apostate. (not complaining about that one bit)
I left, and while damaged by the GB dogma, I have done ok with myself. I have got some therapy, I have made better decisions, and I credit the ex JW community on the internet, both here and on Ronnie's board for that.
The "fluff" that Lee mentions is something I have long seen here. In my case, the political threads draw me, and as I re read my own words, I can see that I was putting out a current opinion, and working things out in my head. That is of great value. And it goes without saying that as JW's, we never had that opportunity, seeing that our personal opinions were squelched to such a large degree. I still come here to work out issues on topics involving politics and religion that are important to me.
The other reason I keep writing is that I feel a responsibility to do something with what I saw for those who are willing to look. Unlike other posters who are sincere and who I have legitimate disagreements with as to their "apostate" approach, I am a firm believer that the ones who leave do so of their own accord, whether they are kicked via disfellowshipping, or have doubts and secretly lurk and try to make up their minds as to what to do, to leave, to fade, etc. In short, they start to take responsibility for themselves, and only they can do that. They need resources on the internet. They need people who have been through a variety of experiences to bounce things off of, to read up, to get the gears in their head going again. In short, they need people who used to be JW's around because we understand. Thinking is hard when you haven't done it in a while....
This board is very important, precisely because it is a huge mix of personalities and opinions, made up of people who have primarily moved on from JW's. In short, this board represents the biggest lie of all that the GB teaches, that you can't be happy and functioning without being a JW. That unity means agreement, not disagreement. That being your own person is better then standing with the "worldwide association" of brothers and sisters indoctrinated cult members.
Thanks for reading one former JW's opinion as to the value of JWN. And Lee, for what this is worth, I agree with you 100%. I couldn't be a mod, at least right now in my life, but I thank you for assuming that sometimes time consuming role. (and all the other mods, Simon, Angharad,. Thanks.)
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Who killed more people in the bible? God vs Satan
by Simon ini thought this was good:.
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http://loveyourchaos.tumblr.com/post/505826969.
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AllTimeJeff
Sorry to bring this up but wasn't Satan the instigator of sin and because man sinned he dies so therefore Satan is responsible in part for all the human deaths from Adam onwards even the ones God killed as a result of their sin.
If so, then they were killed twice. Quite the double team.
Another point to point out that YHWH, the god who loves life, who gave it, certainly liked to take it away whenever he was pissed....
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Crimes Committed by Jehovah's Witnesses...... and Catholics, and Baptists and......
by AllTimeJeff inplease allow me a small opinion, sparked by some drum bangers who are determined to expose and "bring down" the wtbts.
one way that this is done is by attaching a persons religion to a crime report.. for example, rapists who are jw's are frequently brought up here.
child molesters and pedophiles.
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AllTimeJeff
Yeah, bad spellcheck on my part, I corrected it before you got the edited version...... Thanks though!
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22
Crimes Committed by Jehovah's Witnesses...... and Catholics, and Baptists and......
by AllTimeJeff inplease allow me a small opinion, sparked by some drum bangers who are determined to expose and "bring down" the wtbts.
one way that this is done is by attaching a persons religion to a crime report.. for example, rapists who are jw's are frequently brought up here.
child molesters and pedophiles.
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AllTimeJeff
Please allow me a small opinion, sparked by some drum bangers who are determined to expose and "bring down" the WTBTS. One way that this is done is by attaching a persons religion to a crime report.
For example, rapists who are JW's are frequently brought up here. Child molesters and pedophiles. However, recently we have been reminded again that the largest Christian denomination, The Catholic Church, also suffers from the same problem. You will on occasion have their religion brought up, but, the only thing it means is that the person happened to be Catholic, or a JW, or ..... Did they commit the crime because they were Catholic or JW?
Well, if its child molestation we are talking about, probably so. It is pretty clear to see by now how pedophiles use organized religion and their protected status in this country to hide and commit their atrocities.
My point though is simple. Other crimes, such as murder, or theft, or drug possession, and we hear about it on these boards. As if we are trying to prove something.
In a sense, I do think it needs to be exposed for any lurkers here. At the same time, any reasonable lurker who is a JW, perhaps is doubting, will not try to attach any more to the crime then any other reasonable person would.
In short, I strongly feel that trying to attach the "they were a JW" to criminals who happen to be JW doesn't really accomplish a whole lot. I was a JW. I am not a murderer, a pedophile, a drug dealer. I am an upstanding citizen in most ways. (although Republicans might hate my guts....) In any case, my being a JW, or leaving JW's had little to do with me being a non criminal, tax paying citizen of the United States.
I do the right thing because thats how my momma raised me. I still harm no one. I went in the JW world from being the best to a level just above Satan and Judas, all because I disagree with the GB. So their labels I don't care too much about.
I get that the idea is to say "See? Hey you doubting JW lurkers, when you read in the WT that you are part of the greatest little religious club known to man, you aren't, you got just as many weirdos as the next religion, so cut it out with how great you are..." I get that. But you know, it was impressive 15 years ago, and now?
Now, whether you like to believe this or not, JW's are an accepted part of the religious scenery of this country. People get that JW's are weird, will knock on your door and tell you that Paradise is a Watchtower away. Many people today aren't going to fall of JW's line of crap. They are going to go on the internet and compare what others are saying.
That's why sensationalism works against "the cause". (whatever that is these days) Information, reasonably presented with life stories that report instead of exaggerate, that minimize emotions instead of emphasize them (no matter how painful or real those emotions are to us) continues imo to be the best way to expose JW's for what they are.
I think we also have to realize, there are a lot of damaged people in the world, and they gravitate to cults. JW's are the cult we know best, but they aren't the only cults out there (see: Scientology) and if they don't go here, they WILL go somewhere else, I assure you.
So relax. Imo, to make the exposing and taking down of JW's as one's life work is to still give ownership of your life to the WTBTS, just from the other side of the tracks.
Love you all. (ok, most of you I love... some of you I tolerate... )
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Shunned to death!
by koolaid-man inthousands of jehovah's witnesses, and the number could be as high as 100,000, are being disfellowshipped each year in the watchtower org.
their religious policy on disfellowshipping is not biblical, and the punishment is cruel and inhumane.
the punishment of being shunned has many consequences.
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AllTimeJeff
KoolAid Man, I admire anyone who speaks out against the Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't mean the people, but the leadership, the Governing Body. It has always been clear to me that your aim is to expose the leadership and all it's cruel doctrine.
As someone who wishes that they would somehow go away, I am wondering why you think more exposure of Jehovah's Witnesses is the key.
To wit, most people are aware that JW's shun. Also, JW's are not the only religion that shuns, and truthfully, in the bible belt South, JW's are admired in many parts for their disfellowshipping policy. So fundamentalist Christians, while hating that JW are monotheistic instead of trinitarian, will never care about practicing cruel religious dogma. They often do anyway.
Most people are aware that JW's do not take blood medicine. Even if "we" former JW's point out the weird shift on being allowed to take blood fractions, it isn't enough to force a nationwide ban on JW's.
JW's aren't the only religion by a long shot that could be blamed for mental illness, depression, and suicide.
Are you aware KoolAid man that your approach is something that I, and it appears others, take exception to at times? It's not your desire to expose JW's, its the idea that your "sensationalized" approach to get attention is what gets me.
You have had call ins that I have enjoyed. Others, such as those that suggest there is Satanic worship going on at Bethel (please) actually offends me, and many others who have spent any amount of time in the inner circle of JW's.
Again, I think with the negative publicity of Scientology, a religion that acts in some ways like JW's do, it is reasonable to expect that the internet, and former members who speak out, will continue to have an effect.
However, most people are affected by reasonableness. When I go to your website, I can never tell if I am going to get solid information, or some item I might read about in the National Enquirer.
This isn't an attack on your motive, but a serious critique of your approach. I know it is impossible for everyone to like you, so I am not expecting you to be affected by one persons opinion, but I really hope you will give some thought to being more reasonable in what you say about JW's, because I really believe it backfires on your stated motive to expose JW's.
In short, no one goes to your website for real information. There isn't anything there but information charecterized by your own strong views of JW's. You don't allow anyone to come to their own conclusions, as you are hellbent on selling your own. That is probably, imo, the biggest weakness of the information on the website.
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14
It's Not A Hollywood Movie, It's Your Story
by AllTimeJeff ina philosophical ending.. in the end, real life doesn't have happy endings for the happy.
it's even better, because its real.
you are real.
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AllTimeJeff
I think its important to realize that our movies, our stories, are not over. And one thing I know in reading the life stories here is that no one who has left has a boring life, a boring story to tell.
It's only half over.
Heaven, those are the Seven Habits. That book I read while moving up the JW company ladder. I still have it with me. I really do identify with a lot of those concepts. That book alone is a big reason why parts of me were kept from being sucked into the JW personality meat grinder.