Posts by neverendingjourney

10

The movie 'Doubt'

by sass_my_frass in

jw
friends

this has probably come up before but i thought it was worth suggesting: this movie is quite intense but meryl streep and philip hoffman are just magnificent (as always), and it really portrays what members of an organisation do when confronted with abuse.

the leaders of the church handle it internally, but if it's the leaders who are the perpetrators, what can be done?

it doesn't even occur to the members of the organisation to go to the police on their own; they trust the system they know.

neverendingjourney

I wish I had seen the play. I left the movie feeling relatively certain of the priest's guilt, but it's certainly possible that I was projecting my own bias into the film. I certainly didn't pick up any doubt from the nun as to the role the priest had played. At the end she said something to the effect of "his resignation was his confession."

A friend and I were debating this point a few weeks ago. He thought the movie was much more open-ended than I did. To me, it was more about the fallacy of judging a book by its cover. The nun appeared to be bitter and mean-spirited, but in the end she had the boy's interests in mind, even if she was moved to protect the boy more out of a desire to strictly enforce the rules than any particular interest in the boy's well-being. On the other hand, the priest appeared to be interested in the boy's welfare, but only because of his unnatural desires. In the process of ensuring that the rules were followed, the nun lost her faith in the church. Of course, this is one possible interpretation, but it looks like the movie is certainly open to various others.

18

WT typology and the NT

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

this is a question that came to my mind from a couple of recent threads.. we are all familiar with the traditional wt use of typology on ot material (you know, ot characters and events being "types" of modern-day wt features and history, the latter being "antitypes" of the former).

i'm not sure whether this interpretive method has been strictly restricted to ot texts (in fact i don't think so, because i doubt there has been much methodological thinking about it), but it seems to me that it has been only rarely applied to the nt.

and i am wondering why.

neverendingjourney

That's an interesting analysis. It's fun to speculate how the WT might shore up their tangled mess of incomprehensible and out-of-date doctrines, but the real question is: Does the WT have any interest in doing so?

I tend to think they do not. First of all, many oldtimers would not be able to stomach the disappointment. It's kind of like the difference in suspecting that your wife is cheating on you versus having her confess it to you. Many JWs can live with the (suppressed) understanding that the WT has failed them, but seeing it in print via the wholesale changes you describe (an implicit recognition that their prior understanding was wrong) might be too much for them to bear. Many on this forum were awakened by the 1995 and 2008 changes in the "generation" teaching. More departures would certainly follow subsequent modifications.

Also, today's JWs don't seem to be interested in doctrine all that much. Their religion is a social club, a way of life that they were either born into or recruited to join. Their association with the group has more to do with loyalty and the sociological benefits derived from the organization than anything else. Most people don't need solid, logical reasons to join and remain part of a religion. I suspect JWs are no different. Why fix something that ain't broken?

24

Is the governing body now saying they are APOSTLES?

by yesidid in

jw
friends

i thought i read here that the gb as a group is saying that individually they are modern day apostles.. can someone please confirm and give references.. thank you in advance.. .

yesidid .

neverendingjourney

While the WT may not directly equte the GB with the 12 apostles, I always felt it was implicit in its teachings. They have, however, directly linked the GB with the "apostles and older men" of the 1st century Jerusalem congregation. Making the connection from the 12 apostles to the GB is not much of a stretch for a believer as a result.

This is especially true because for a long time, the GB consisted of 12 men. The number would decrease when memebers died off, but they were quickly replaced to get the number back up to 12. The GB has consisted of 9 members for a few years now, but it was always right around 12 when I was a believer, which helped further solidify the apostles/GB connection in my own mind.

10

The movie 'Doubt'

by sass_my_frass in

jw
friends

this has probably come up before but i thought it was worth suggesting: this movie is quite intense but meryl streep and philip hoffman are just magnificent (as always), and it really portrays what members of an organisation do when confronted with abuse.

the leaders of the church handle it internally, but if it's the leaders who are the perpetrators, what can be done?

it doesn't even occur to the members of the organisation to go to the police on their own; they trust the system they know.

neverendingjourney

Meryl Streep's performance was magnificent! One of the best I've seen in years. She was very convincing as a sour, vindictive nun, yet at the same time you couldn't help but view her as a victim. I was almost moved to tears at the end when she confessed to having doubts about the Church. It reminded me of when I became aware that the "truth" wasn't really that at all.

It's a shame she lost out to Kate Winslet at the Oscars. I saw the Reader, but Winslet's own performance in Revolutionary Road was superior. Holocaust movies always take home the trophys, it seems.

6

Twilight Zone Marathon July 4th weekend

by Gram in

has anyone been watching any of this weekend's tz marathon?

all black and white, with some actors who went on to become well known stars.

i only watch a few because my grandson (deceased) loved them!

neverendingjourney

Ya I just finnished watching one, don't recall the name but it shoud have been called the last man on earth.

Fine demonstrtion how important it is that we need some kind of companionship.

seen the movie before, but it had been so long ago I did not remember how it went.

You're probably talking about an episode called Two starring Charles Bronson. It's one of my favorites.

72

Regarding Quoting Scriptures All the Time

by AllTimeJeff in

are you really thinking for yourself when you quote scriptures all the time as your personal answer?.

i bring this up for two reasons: first and foremost, it became almost a game in jw land, a competition to see who had the better (wt approved) passage when something came up.. almost always of course, if it was "of this world", well, we know the nwt in particular is full of how bad "the world" is.

can't be part of "this world") its bad!.

neverendingjourney

The Bible is similar to worldly wisdom- all sides are covered.

If someone harms you:

1. Seek retribution because God demands an "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" --Exodus 21:24

2. Do not seek retribution because Jesus said "but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." --Matthew 5:39

72

Regarding Quoting Scriptures All the Time

by AllTimeJeff in

are you really thinking for yourself when you quote scriptures all the time as your personal answer?.

i bring this up for two reasons: first and foremost, it became almost a game in jw land, a competition to see who had the better (wt approved) passage when something came up.. almost always of course, if it was "of this world", well, we know the nwt in particular is full of how bad "the world" is.

can't be part of "this world") its bad!.

neverendingjourney

Appeal to authority only works if other people recognize and give weight to the authority being appealed to.

If a poster consistently quoted Mohammed, I suppose the forum would nearly unanimously be unimpressed. Quoting Dawkins to a bunch of creationists would similarly be of no use.

I suppose some people don't realize that many of us reject the Bible as the final arbiter of what is right and wrong. Or maybe they don't care. Maybe it just makes them feel good. Perhaps it's a force of habit. Whatever the case may be, it doesn't bother me too much. I just judge the merits of the poster's opinions independently of the scripture being cited.

8

Nobody should force them to wear skirts.

by OnTheWayOut in

jw
friends

so the wife and i were watching wimbledon today.

we saw serena beat venus williams.

then we started watching the men's doubles.. the wife said how the men were wearing such nice preppie shirts and shorts and how the women were forced to wear skirts.. i couldn't resist.

neverendingjourney

Yes, but Jehovah appointed the WTA as His channel on Earth and entrusted it with the responsibility to provide women's tennis tournaments at the proper time.

As such, it has the responsibility to establish a proper dress code. Questioning the wisdom behind the rules suggets a rebellious spirit and a lack of appreciation for Jehovah's arrangements.

27

Ok, fess up, how many of you dirt-bags were into that sleazy network-marketing crap?

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

seems to me that you could go to any one of those meetings and find a jw.. oh and weren't there alway those theocratic urban legends about some family somewhere who bought into said ponzi scam and they all quit their jobs and are pioneering now that they've gotten into it?.

neverendingjourney

My brother almost got sucked into Amway about ten years ago. The guy who showed up to our door (non-JW) came with a recommendation from an elder. Despite my pleadings, he got as far as buying the initial recruitment kit (in the neighborhood of $400, if memory serves me), but that's as far as he got with it.

Ironically, he decided to quit after attending a few of their weekly sales meetings. He said it reminded him too much of Pentecostal-style gatherings, but instead of God they talked about money. If you knew him, you'd understand that he's incredibly terrified of the dreaded demunz and thought he might get possessed by those people, so he stopped going. Sigh.

I felt bad for the recruiter. He was thoroughly brainwashed and certain he'd be a millionaire within 3 years, just like his mentor. He constantly fed himself Amway propoganda in the form of written material and audiotapes. He attended 3 weekly Amway meetings and conventions every four months. To echo JeffT above, sound familiar? It's eerie how much Amway's organization resembled the JWs, but that's another topic...

19

Jehovah's Witnesses & their cynical lust for negativity

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

for me this is one of the most hideous things about the jw's.. it's like they are willing on the next world disaster.

they are gleeful if anyone that they know comes into some sort of trouble if they are not following 'bible standards'.

they simply aren't interested in anything good.

neverendingjourney

It's kind of a chicken-and-the-egg question. Are negative people attracted to the WT or does the WT turn people's outlooks negative? I suspect it's a little of both.

My father is one of the most negative people I know. He's in his 60's and literally has no friends. He hardly speaks with his own family and my mother's family tries to avoid him at all cost. It's no wonder he was attracted to the WT's gloom and doom message. It was in synch with his already-negative outlook.

My mom was overprotective and was scared she would lose her kids to the streets (we grew up poor), so it makes sense that she was attracted to the WT. She knows next to nothing about WT doctrine, but she liked seeing well-dressed, obedient kids (although coerced) kids at the meetings. It seemed like a perfect way to legitimize her overbearing ways.

On the other hand, I saw some healthy, normal people join the WT's ranks and become embittered with time. Maybe it's the stress of the lifestyle, the constant reminders of our "imperfection, and/or the realization that people treat you differently after you get baptized that zaps people of their positive outlook.

But there's no doubt that the negativity comes from the top down. It's an effective way to keep control of the sheep. If you come to view everything around you in a negative light, then you become dependent on the new system as the only solution to your problems.