Posts by gsark

14

Change another's views -- or not?

by CPiolo in

jw
friends

a short while ago, maximus and a few others were discussing the ethics of tying to influence another regarding their belief system.

many came down on the side of caution, if not downright abstention.

if a person lived in a vacuum, i might be inclined to agree.

gsark

Nice to hear from everybody on this subject, it is important and has far reaching applications.

I say that 'Nobody wakes up one day and becomes a JW" because people in the helping professions (psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, etc) have been studying Jehovah's Witnesses since at least the sixties,(and still do) and they are practically all in agreement that this is something the average JW have in common, among other things. While I find their insights amazingly impressive, logic and my own personal observations dictates that it be true, else why do people in general not join, and why do so many of the children of JW's not join and why have so many JW's left the org over the years? Because they couldn't find what they wanted there. If you read many of the personal posts on this board, they will tell you so. Again I think it is logical that people JOIN the JW's because there's something there they want that they couldn't find somewhere else.

In the old days when we didn't have the internet, it might have been possible to be 'duped'. It kind of happened to me. I was studying in 1976, and my study conductor made the point of saying "our leaders never said that,(about the 'end' in 1975) only a few zealous Winesses said that out of turn." It never occurred to me to say..."let me see last years magazines and books so I can make sure that's the truth" I just believed them(at age 16). And of course anyone who could have told me different had LEFT already.

But now we have the internet, and the JW stance on many issues is well known. Between 7 failed prophecies minimum,the blood transfusion issue, alternative service,shunning, disfellowshipping someone because they are a rape or molestation survivor, the list goes on and on and on. Geez, not even Branch Davidians or the People's Temple had a track record like this (as my Wiccan son keeps telling me) (Of course they went on to bigger things, sadly) As David Reed -I believe it was -said, the loss of life suffered among the Branch Davidians and People's Temple doesn't compare to the numbers of lost lives among Jehovah's Witnesses. (blood, alternative service and that 25 cent tax in Malawi for instance). Well, he gets really emotional about the subject, I have to admit. Very powerful reading his stuff.

Why would anyone join this group today except to find 'something'... God knows what and God be with them.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

14

Memorial Attendance Figures 2001

by gsark in

jw
friends

at the dc this weekend, they released memorial attendance figures for the us.

funny thing.

2001 2, 163, 602 (announced at dc, if i wrote tham down correctly).

gsark

No Partaker numbers were given but I am not sure that those numbers are for public consumption anyway. But I'm sure the local congregation elders know by now, maybe elder lee or bill bowen or any one of those fine people can clue us in. BTW at a convention total of 10,878 there were 63 baptisms and 1000 volunteers. (This was in Los Angeles.)

What amazed me were the unbelievable ratio of young v old in the audience. There must have been one person over 50 for every 20 or 30 persons under 25. I could count on both hands the number of elderly ones, and also the number of infants. I haven't attended a convention in a few years, but maybe another person on this board can clue us in to any trends. Times they be a changin'....

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

45

Staying awake during the Watchtower study

by drahcir yarrum in

jw
friends

here's a question i always wanted answered during the years i was a witness.

what's the best way to stay awake during the watchtower study?

oh, furthermore, what's the best way to stay awake during any witness "snooze-a-thon" brainwashing session?

gsark

A Walkman or generic equivalent. Just did it at the DC this weekend.

Alternatives: read C of C or In Search of C. F. Just stand/applaud/sing when everyone else does!

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

26

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation

by VM44 in

jw
friends

the kingdom interlinear translation (kit) has been published by the.

watchtower since 1969. it still is available in it's second editon.. but how many really use this book?

or read it?

gsark

you'll love this:

Dr. Julius R. Mantey (who is even recognized by the Watchtower as a Greek scholar since they quote his book on page 1158 of their Kingdom Interlinear Translation)

: calls the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 "A grossly misleading translation. It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John l:1 'the Word was a god. 'But of all the scholars in the world, so far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have done." "I was disturbed because they (the Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation. I called their attention to the fact that the whole body of the New Testament was against their view. Throughout the New Testament, Jesus is glorified and magnified--yet here they were denigrating Him and making Him into a little god of pagan concept . . .1 believe it's a terrible thing for a person to be deceived and go into eternity lost, forever lost because somebody deliberately misled him by distorting the Scripture!. . . Ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the Jehovah's Witnesses. People who are looking for the truth ought to know what the majority of the scholars really believe. They should not allow themselves to be misled by the Jehovah's Witnesses and end up in hell." (Ron Rhodes "Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" p.103-105)

http://members.tripod.com/sosoutreach/script/nwt.html

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

16

The perfect JW honey trap

by mauddib in

jw
friends

-i'm a jw who has been in the org his entire life.. -i never used a computer except at work to place customer orders.. -my wife buys me an 800mhz system from the neighborhood circuit city store as an anniversary gift.

says i can research my ministry school talks.

-i hook it up, it works (!!

gsark

all of the above, plus this

1) this HAS to be a JW forum because people of every race, religion, creed, ethnic and social status are getting along in here with free exchange of ideas and intellectual and spiritual expression ---and only Witnesses have THAT! True________False_______

or

2)this CAN'T be a JW forum because people of every race, religion, creed, ethnic and social status are getting along in here with free exchange of ideas and intellectual and spiritual expression ---and Witnesses lack THAT! True_________False_________

Listen up kiddies, there will be a quiz later!

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

14

Change another's views -- or not?

by CPiolo in

jw
friends

a short while ago, maximus and a few others were discussing the ethics of tying to influence another regarding their belief system.

many came down on the side of caution, if not downright abstention.

if a person lived in a vacuum, i might be inclined to agree.

gsark

Every man, woman or child who ever lived with a batterer,or molester knows you cannot change people. The Jehovah's Witnesses are learning to their incredible embarrassment that they cannot 'change' hardened pedophiles who in fact may have been attracted to their organization in the first place because of this vey view.

What you can do is ascertain the reason your wife is interested in Witnesses/Witnessing in the first place. Nobody just wakes up someday and decides to become a member of this religion, including many people who were 'born' into it. Something is missing in their life, and they think the Witnesses have it. Does this person feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are not loved enough, that their opinions and feelings don't matter enough? You have it within your power to see if this is so, and maybe help your spouse find these thing. How about encouraging the spouse to take up a hobby, or go back to school, or maybe move or remodel or redecorate the house, anything distracting. I know for a fact that works!

Something that works unbelievably well is compromise. Remember, JW's tell eveyone that all non-JW's are under Satan's control, that they will be persecutors, that they're going to die,die die. I have known 'mixed' couples to agree that the child/children can go to the bookstudy because it is in a small family environment and is only an hour. Some have also agreed that a child may attend the public (often Sunday) talk because it is only 45 minutes.

These compromises gives the 'other mate' the opportunity to 'Witness' in their own way, because 1) this tells the mate and the other JW's that hey, I thought unbelievers were persecutors for Satan,what's up here. This puts you in control. 2)it teaches the child that there is another way besides the JW's, and that it works as well if not better. (In my personal opinion, the public talk and the bookstudy are the weaker spiritual food anyway, your best shot).

Those are just examples, and I have personally seen them work, and I have used these techniques in my own family with great success. When there is love, warmth, emotional support, tolerance, flexibility, openmindedness,and room for spiritual and emotional growth etc in the family home, the JW's don't look so good. If there is intolerance, no compromise, no spiritual or intellectual freedom of expressions, loud arguments, bad language, just think how good the Witnesses will look then.

I hope this, or some variation of it helps.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

14

Memorial Attendance Figures 2001

by gsark in

jw
friends

at the dc this weekend, they released memorial attendance figures for the us.

funny thing.

2001 2, 163, 602 (announced at dc, if i wrote tham down correctly).

gsark

Is 21,500 'publishers' the same as 21,500 memorial attenders? I guess we'll never know. Too bad. I only just realized that these figures aren't available on the WT CD-ROM. It says 'see publication'.

And I sincerely doubt that the Witnesses have anything near a loss rate of 1% of publishers in death. There aren't any wars, famine etc. inside the WT (whatever other faults I may find with them)and if the District Convention I just attended is any indicator, the average age of publishers is much younger than the norm . Congregations I have known of don't lose a Witness once in several years, and I'll betcha many of the ones they do lose are not active publishers possibly because of long illnesses. I think 1% is being overgenerous (is that the right word, LOL). Again, we'll never know.

And in addition to that, the number of baptized publishers total is taken at the end of the year, and the Memorial attendance figures are for one night only a few months later.

You brought up a good point, I think . At Memorial attendance, everybody and the kitchen sink is counted. Whereas a 'publisher' is a 'publisher'. In that case, I think the loss of active publishers may be quite higher than even those numbers take account of. On the other hand, those numbers could refer to the increase of smaller sized families. People are having fewer children, Winesses are having fewer children, and so are their children, and so are their converts, and so on and so on. (this could affect the ultimate numbers of both publishers and memorial attendees) On the other hand (tired hands!) I understand that now a 'publisher' is not just a baptized person, but an approved associate going out in field service. In other words maybe there were only 30,00 newly baptized ones, but there may have been say, 40,00 new publishers total. That should have been reflected in Memorial attendance figures.

Or maybe the annual observance of the Lord's Evening Meal just isn't the family event that it used to be. (I want my MTV...)

the constant DF'ing and DA'ing must take their toll on their numbers as well, I"m saddened to think.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

21

WTS says 215 years - Bible says 430 - Which?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

215 years or 430 years?

the july 15th wt study some have been talking about (not sure of which issue of the wt is involved) was quoted as saying this, "when the israelites headed for freedom after spending 215 years in egypt, much of that time in slavery, a vast mixed company also went up with them.

(exodus 12:38) ".

gsark

the jw's know its 215 years because they said 14 years ago it was 215 years? Sailboats tacking in circles again?

You Know, you have just made my point for me. You have just absolutely made my day. That is the reason something like 10 memebers of my family are ex-jw's or inactive. Why can't we just go on believing as we have for 100 years that the Israelites dwelt in Egypt for 430 years? Period. Why do we have to this 215 years based on Geneology blah blah blah and make an isuue of it? Now anyone that doesn't agree with the 215 years is weak at least and apostate at most?

So what, the GB: Let's see how faithful the sheep are, let's see how gullible they are, let's see who the real JW's are. Let's set a trap and see if they fall in. Let's see if they're strong enough to get through this...

Some loving shepherds. As far as running ahead of the org, if the GB didn't open their mouths with stuff like this, there'd be nothing to 'run ahead OF'. AAaaaaargh!

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

3

Why do you belive jw's are true religion?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

last sundays watchtower 1/6/01 pg 13 p4 ,under the subheading of " who today have gods backing?

" said "granted, true religion does make people better.

but does the fact that a religion produces better people in itself prove that it has god's backing?

gsark

that just happened in another post. to paraphrase,

"JW know that the Israelites were slaves for 215 years because it says in the <publication of choice> that the Israelites were slaves for 215 years and so on and so one. <sigh>

A fabulous point, sleepy.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

21

WTS says 215 years - Bible says 430 - Which?

by Amazing in

jw
friends

215 years or 430 years?

the july 15th wt study some have been talking about (not sure of which issue of the wt is involved) was quoted as saying this, "when the israelites headed for freedom after spending 215 years in egypt, much of that time in slavery, a vast mixed company also went up with them.

(exodus 12:38) ".

gsark

Hang on to your WT folks; I can guarantee you that if this is a booboo, the bound volumes and the WT CD-ROm will say something different!

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!