what is your myers-briggs personality type?
if you're unfamiliar with it, you can take a test here: http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/jtypes2.asp.
be warned that the test can be wildly inaccurate.
I actually took this with a psychologist giving me the test. I am an INTP. Apparently there aren't many women that are that. I was the only one out of 40 that were taking the test that day.
My introversion preference is over 80%. I work a very public job no idea how I do it.
"remember jehovah in the days of your youth".
this was a list of my experiences as a young dub that i penned about a dozen years ago.. it was based on the theme in the watchtower article referenced below that i remember reading all that many years ago.. *** w71 6/15 367 remembering your creator in the days of your young manhood ***.
12:1.. the sole purpose of the article was to convince young people to dedicate their younger years to preaching for the watchtower bible and tract society and practicing their policies and doctrines at all times.. many people who become jws as adults, and later leave, have at least some "normal" remembrances of a "traditional" childhood.
We didn't have to deal with the flag/anthem thing very often as I grew up in the 80s/90s. What got me was bad association. I couldnt understand how when "worldly" kids were 1000 times better behaved than my choices of association in the hall, that Mom and Dad said they were bad and I couldnt go to their houses even if I was playing in the street with them after school!
This was confusing and frustrating. School=okay, grandmas house=okay, outside on street = okay. Them in my house=BAD, me in theirs=BAD.
Then I got older. Mom and Dad both had friends outside the church through hobbies and the internet (maybe 2-3 tops). They both had them over every 2-3 months. I did not understand this. I asked again. "Mom can I go hang out with soandso after school? They promised to follow Jehovah's rules while I am visiting so I wont get in trouble!" I was told no it was wrong and I was also asked to stop asking at that point.
When I became a teen I fought my parents about this constantly. I was allowed to, "leave the religion at any time sweetie, its your choice I cant make you believe in jehovah, it will make me sad to not have you in the paradise though because you're my baby". When I went to, I was scolded for it and was made to study for hours with my Mom.. and my Dad...who is an elder was never really any part of it. To this day both of them still break that rule.
It frustrated me as the witness kids were very unkind and my only option to someone wanting to be my friend, was cut off by someone doing exactly what we were being told not to do. The worse was any talk or part about bad association the whole family even my sibling would turn and kind of glare at me, as if "This is for you Bettie, pay attention".
When they do all these things on top of watching reality shows like "the real world",it makes it worse. I think them watching that stuff is just as bad as hanging out with the people because you are privy to all their business and emotional outbursts and you get to "be there" for all the drinking an nonsense that goes on (not anti drinking, Im anti getting drunk for the sake of getting drunk and making an arse of oneself/fighting with housemates while drunk). I was a very frustrated kid to say the least.
So all that was pretty bad in itself. As for missing out on other things. I never cared for any specific holiday and still dont do anything special. This is more because I am non religious than the fact that I "cant celebrate" them. I just dont see the point in obseving a religious holiday, when I simply am no longer religious. Thats just a small part of it but thats what stands out as the most troubling thing in my youth that frustrated most of my young mind. Dont be fooled though, if someone wants me over for xmas dinner or a dress up party, Im there.
many brothers have been calling me latley with expressions of "love"......since i attended a couple meetings, they come out of the woodwork.
one "brother" who i helped into the truth, with money, with giving up smoking, honestly told me he only rang because he heard i was going to meetings.
i didn't talk to my disfellowshiped sister for years....she got married with no family present on her side.....i cry when i watch the tape...my greatest shame.
What you say is true for me.
I don't think I actually understood the true meaning of love between 2 people as in friends (non romantic) until I left the church. Actually having people love and care for me because they CHOOSE to be my friend instead of HAVING to be my friend, or being a friend of convenience made all the difference in the world.
I almost cried every time I was around witness kids, even into hanging out as young adults they were unkind and "forgot" about me. I wasn't mean or lame, certain things couldn't be done around me apparently, because I was an elders kid and they thought I'd be a major square or I'd tell... They also used that to their advantage at odd, random times because if no parents were going, it was fine as long as I went.... What a bunch of Jerks!
When I left I was so shocked at the difference, I thanked my friends (old friends from high school that took me back) for loving and caring for me as a person even though when I was a witness I had to tell them I couldnt hang out outside of school. They all forgave me. That is very loving.
every now and then i come across comical references to smurfs in posts on this site, i have been in the org all my life and never heard of any demonisation of father abraham's little blue imaginary friends, even when they they hit the uk top ten singles chart.
can someone enlighten me of what was said, where and when?
maybe i missed it because i was more concerned about kiss using an ouija board in plane or axel rose being anagram of oral sex!!!
I heard the smurf being posessed and running out of a convention. That must have been the Canadian version? Close enough to the assembly hall one. I heard it about 15-20 years ago. It's a classic now I guess!
love me, hate me.
love me, hate me.
(love me, hate me).
I had an incident similar to that of Donny's when we were out during the week (when I was an older teenager) our car group passed a group of young witnesses that were all pioneering for the month except one who was unbaptized. They had a station wagon full of youths their age and eager to get out of the car and do the street, it was almost 11, coffee time! One of the girls got out of the car before it was turned off, meaning the radio was still on.
You could hear something loud in there, and when she opened the door: "WHAT YOU GONNA DO WITH ALL THAT JUNK,ALL THAT JUNK INSIDE YOUR TRUNK?" then she saw us and the faces of some of the people in the car (I wish I could remember who was there) and blushed, and the car was turned off by the driver almost right after the line got out so it was stopped but I was already supressing laughter, not visibly but it was there. If I laughed I'd probably get in trouble.
My cargroups reaction was to get out of there as we were doing RV's anyway and we didn't really want to be at door while there were 3 sets of very giggly/hyper teenagers doing door to door, it would be a witness invasion.
I guess the song mentions "true religion" and "the brothers" but I have a strong feeling that isn't what it means. (I know what it means I'm being silly). I don't listen to that sort of stuff but it sure gets caught in your head.
Same with ringtones....don't have a labeled satanic by the society-group's ringtone on your phone. If your phone goes off at the meeting, you're screwed.
i've had a rash of people commenting on my videos lately that seem to not even understand their own teachings.
it leads me to question if jehovah's witnesses can even explain their own beliefs.
for example if i ask a question about the 1914 doctrine specifically about the biblical backing behind 607 bce being the year for the destruction of jerusalem, 9 times out of 10 i'm going to get some sort of answer that involves the "prophecy" in matthew 24 and how it somehow has been fufilled since 1914.. apart from the fact i honestly don't think i can find a jehovah's witness who will actually understand the question at hand enough to answer the points therein, i'm to the point where i don't know if jehovah's witnesses even understand their own teachings.
I remember they used to, about once a year do a meeting where they discussed 1914, 607 etc. I always remember my Mom sitting in deep concentration. When I asked her what it was she said "I'm studying for the meeting, I don't get this part because it is hard stuff".
I've also heard people over the years refer to it as "The dense stuff", the "HEAVY stuff", "all that crazy date stuff".
I have only had it explained to me once, by a person who was not a witness at all, and was able to discredit it in the same breath. I facepalmed. The reason? We changed the way we do calanders in between then and now. How the heck do we even know we are in the "right" year?
Weight or no weight directly on this matter, it is a thing to ponder. Is ALL religion wrong based on this? I don't know myself. I didn't remember it until I read this thread and it happened a decade ago. (looks like I have some reading to do)
That same person did a "study" with me we used it as an excuse to hang out [school friend that studied theology in spare time but as said was non religious]. He had expected a very enriched study in the knowledge book, but I was not taking the study for the first one as I had never taken one before and I was being taught by my (forced) mentor at the time, so it was done the "proper" Q&A way.
Afterwards we got online and he basically said, "No wonder you all come to the same conclusion, if you wander from what's there in the paragraph its...wrong somehow, WTF?" . He knew why, he just wanted me to see why. That's when I slowly subconciously was working towards getting myself out (as we both knew I questioned everything but was too prideful/scared to admit it).
A few days later I went back online (I was never big on the internet, just computers in general) it was 2005. I had gone online and rejoined some communities, and through that I met normal, kind , rational, people that supported me on my way out, and that was even before I got here (now out in all but title), for some better, more specific help.
As for the blood thing, for the conscience stuff my favourite, common JW answer is "Well, that person will have to deal with Jehovah when their day comes".....okay so lets totally discount the fact that it is happening, and according to many nurses I know personally, common.
In fact that is an answer I get for a lot of the unjust things I complain about. Yeah you can wait, but why doesn't god care about how those people feel about it now and how it affects them in this life? This applies especially to abuse/rape victims.
Not that I recall. Even though I was a regular aux pioneer, I couldn't read through (as in for sure read every page) a lot of the books. It isn't that I hate reading either I'm actually quite the opposite.
I have read physics textbooks (whee astrophysics and basics), biology books (including pathology, biochemistry, endocrinology, horticulture) math textbooks, and tons of coding and language stuff for my computer hobby, and I can't read through a WT book without difficulty. I have too many moments where I scan across something and it either makes my core (hard to describe the inner sinking pulling feeling) hurt because it bothers my conscience and self as a whole to believe certain things or to treat my fellow man a certain way.
I also used to even when I had it in my head that "You should always respect the society/God's organization", have issue with the magazines or literature stroking their ego a bit too hard. While I did appreciate the effort put in by people that belive they are genuinely doing gods work (making the magazines etc) it was giving too much glory to the wrong place, I didn't really get mad about it I'd just more chuckle and be like "Okay then lets find out where the God part is, what he is up to and where I fit into that" and move on, but it was common enough.
The only book I read cover to cover was Mankind's Search for God, even then I was insulted by some of the takes on other faiths. I think I read it when I was 12 or 13. At that time I had studied the other faiths enough to know the truth about them.
I never got too excited over new releases except the creation one, but then that led me to logic !=correct. (!= is does not equal for those that don't know, I use that one a fair bit). I think I stopped reading most of the way though after all the big exciting numbers went away.
Now that I am out of the organization I do like (not necessarily enjoy) reading the Watchtower and Awake, if not for myself then me keeping tabs on it since I still am asked to joust a bit over it with my remaining JW family members. I can only do well for myself if I stay current, but I read them in chunks of 3-4 rather than constantly as I want to try and clear up my head too.
White dove, I'm glad to hear I am not the only one, heh heh. It helped me win a spell-a-thon. I raised about 70 bucks which was a lot in those days. I paid for most of the class' fieldtrip.
It was one of the few moments in my life where I was proud of myself, and my witness "best friend" told the teacher I cheated using notes in my desk (she got one wrong halfway through cutting off her cash count), this led many in the class to get angry with me, one kid dumped my desk to look for proof (all my nice stuff on the floor!). My innocence was proven, but darn. There isn't one thing I could have for myself without getting crapped on by WT or it's associates in some way. The teacher was pretty ticked off too. I am laughing typing this because I didn't even really remeber that until now and it is rather unreal. How can people behave that way and think they are kind and loving in any capacity? That girl went on to do things like that do me for many years and the only reason I kept going back was, there was literally no choice for friends in the org.
I wonder why I never told my Mom that..... She would have probably been really mad about that. At that point I had basically given up on any sense of individual justice because I was so used to being told I was wrong regardless of my intentions.
just need to vent for a minute..... sister's husband out of work (both jdubs).
it was suggested he go back to school and try to become a radiology tech.
good money and fairly in demand around here.
My parents (my Dad is an elder with a position, so it isn't necessarily a "fringe opinion") had never saved the money for me to be in school, but my mother said I needed some college to get through with my life. At the least to take something like a office management course so I could make in the $20-40+ an hour in office work as opposed to minimum-15$ an hour.
They felt that if I got qualification for a job that I could do part-time and make decent money, I could pioneer the rest of the time and get a job anywhere in the world. My Very very devout sister did the same to become an insurance saleslady and she makes good bank working a few days a week.
Other community college courses that you can take have to do with drafting, welding, all sorts of things. Education to them in that way isn't bad.
Becoming an engineer or a pathologist would yeild a "now be realistic" response, at the same time I was told I can do it if I really want (their disapprovakl would have guilted old me out of it).
Keep in mind though on the East Coast they refer to West coast Witnesses as "The Reformed Church of Jehovah's Witnesses". That is probably part of it. At least a third of our youths went to some kind of college. Also college in Canada is different in some ways.
The college life experience now, that is something else. That's part of what got me thinking differently and got me out (I realised all worldly people are not unhappy vacant miserable people that use you for nothing. There are nice loving friendly enriched people too, also logic does not mean right as it depends on what you base it on). The odd few hours a week isn't bad for classes, full time school for longer than a few terms would probably have a big effect on many.
Other parents outright refused to pay or help their kids so it does differ I suppose. I was lucky. I got anything I wanted paid for in the end and since I was a smart kid in high school the government got the rest. I now work with computers mostly and it's great. I didn't need school for that too, I'm just a geek.
Religion wide though, generally speaking, secondary education is not recommended as it distracts from what they want and think they need you to do. That and it cracks open your brain into different ways of thinking.
a few weeks ago my father started coming by and dropping off fruit for the kids.
most times when he would come by i wasn't home.
then a couple of weeks ago my father stopped by at about 7:30am and invited me to breakfast at ihop with my mother.
To relatives, I look them dead in the eye and laugh in a friendly way saying "I hope you're not counting time by talking to me because it sure doesn't count!"
I've only caught 2 so far, and they ended up not doing it because my mentioning it alone brought forth fear and guilt. Then I felt kinda bad.
To witnesses that troll me on forums that are nothing to do with religion, I post in the thread "Gee I sure hope you aren't counting time". I have told friends to do this too on forums and continue to remind my time counting ex friends and relatives in an effort to:
1) bring up the fact that many relatives count time, as do people that "preach online"
2) Make them realise I am a person, not a stepping stone to them receiving positive re enforcement.
3) Get rid of witnesses on sites/relatives that freak right out if anything is even slightly mentioned in a negative way in relation to witnesses, I am referring to the kind that are there to/call to preach, not share ideas or solve conflict.
If your father feels that you are a lost cause, you could always come back the next time with, "Why do you think I feel the way I do?" you may get the canned "It's Satan" response, but if you take the following measure you may have success.
Before that , you need to make it clear, you are his child, and if he as your father gives you the canned response or a response the society gives him as opposed to a well thought out answer specifically tailored to you, for anything you discuss, he is acting out of reflexive answer and not reasoning or loving consideration for you and your emotional well being.
I have pointed this out to some of my JW family members with moderate success. I even got a "Wow, I never ever thought of it that way, you're right", others have reacted with a scoff and an abrupt end but they came back a bit later with a more open attitude.
I am not a professional or anything so my advice isn't guaranteed but it is something else to try. Many people don't realise they have a canned response for things. I used to have canned responses until I realised it is rare 2 people have the exact cirumstances and feelings. So it is better to measure them as people based on what they are and say, not what we perceive they are, or perceive they are thinking.
I tolerated being yelled at "WHAT DO YOU REALLY BELEIVE?" (they were very very frustrated, so okay) right after I left the church for about a year. I didn't even know....I think I'm starting to know now though, and it isn't their way. I still haven't talked it out with my family. I will probably need several more months before I have the right insight/have digested the thought process to discuss it freely and openly.
That and I need to know the true history behind the WTS to be able to assess it as a religious organization, even with things they have said by their own submission that is current doctrine.... I don't feel right going along with much of that.
this is the 4th study article, to be studied christmas week as it happens.
title - "maintaining friendships in a loveless world".
para 2 "today, what a pleasure it is to be associated with a worldwide organization whose members follow the pattern set by first century christians.
I already posted the quote with some discussion in the member forums, but I have to say it again as it applied to this discussion.
That is, the "Father's wise words" from the drama at the District Convention!
" If you leave Jehovah's organization you become easy prey for satan... No one can truly love you unless they know and love Jehovah too. Please come home son and come back to Jehovah too you know you will be welcome, please come."
We are incapable of love, apparently, unless we have love for Jehovah. At least that what it is starting to sound like. If you hear a copy of the drama, the way it is said too makes my skin crawl.
I've had a better, more productive life (as an "ex witness") with people that choose to be with me as opposed to obligation to people you're supposed to be watching out for anyway, which in itself creates mistrust ("youre my friend I have this problem and I went against go-" "I'm telling the elders!").
My "witness friends" treated me worse than any bully or random jerk ever has. When they found out I had missed several meetings before I had actually left (never said anyting never df'ed)left (I was legitimatley sick) they had started to mutter things about me and basically twisted factual events (such as me being in public with a worldly associate to pick up a part for a car) into dating and having sex with. If my father was not an elder I would have been toast. My father trusts me and is aware of the two faced attitudes some have. It was pretty much "Nice, guys! thanks for coming out and being my friend for the short time it was convenient".
I had liberal parents and a pool and every gaming system. I was only popular in the summer or when it suited people to play the newest game or go for a swim the same people would try to humiliate me at school to students and teachers alike, so I hung out with worldly kids only outside of home, they helped me to feel normal happy and accepted, not like someone who is there so my stuff could be used for the activity, with my input and feelings being ignored.
That and at the Last DC I went to the person I lived with for a bit to help them get better after life threatening surgery ignored me even though I waved at them and started to head over there. What an ungrateful person. I hope that now that they are healthy enough to work and make money to actually survive on their own (over 30 years of age) that they appreciate it in SOME capacity. I even cleaned the baseboards to their ceiling killing a chronic silverfish problem in their home all while they lay in bed literally bleeding to death (they didn't die which made me happy as they are rather bright in some ways, otherwise truly conditioned). That isn't to say I don't feel sorry for that person still.
I experienced lessons through being friends with only WTS members. Sadly, none of those lessons were about being a good friend.
