Posts by UnDisfellowshipped

26

The dreaded disfellowshiping

by link in

.

i have been informed on good authority (a dub for 27 years) that you cannot get disfelowshiped for committing a wrongdoing, only for being unrepentant.. can anyone tell me if this is true or not, and if it is not where the misunderstanding comes from?

link

UnDisfellowshipped

Also, the Society has a STRICT CONFIDENTIALITY on WHY someone is Disfellowshipped.

They won't reveal that to ANY regular Witness.

26

The dreaded disfellowshiping

by link in

.

i have been informed on good authority (a dub for 27 years) that you cannot get disfelowshiped for committing a wrongdoing, only for being unrepentant.. can anyone tell me if this is true or not, and if it is not where the misunderstanding comes from?

link

UnDisfellowshipped

The Official Rules claim you can't get Disfellowshipped unless you are unrepentant (CORRECTION -- unless the UNTRAINED VOLUNTEER ELDERS decide you are not repentant enough for them).

However, if you are exposing a cover-up that is going on in your Congregation, or in the entire Organization, they will Disfellowship you NO MATTER WHAT! (Just look at Bowen, Barbara & Joe Anderson, Carl & Barbara Pandelo, and others).

The "Organized To Accomplish Our Ministry" Book says that if the Elders decide to Disfellowship someone, then the Elders MUST give the person the "CLEAR BIBLICAL REASON" for the Disfellowshipping Action.

I would LOVE to hear the Society's "CLEAR BIBLICAL REASONS" for Disfellowshipping those silentlambs listed above.

Also, whenever they want to want to use it, the Elders have a "3-Year Statue of Limitations" on Sins (according to a 1972 Our Kingdom Ministry), so if you can cover up something for 3 years, you can get away with it supposedly (but I bet this only works for Elders, Overseers, and child molesters!).

Also, I'm sure that if you ask certain questions about Bill Bowen or the United Nations Scandal, or their Rape Policy, they will take action against you.

Also, here is a HUGE LIST of QUOTES about DISFELLOWSHIPPING: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35751&site=3

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 September 2002 23:0:10

33

Lawrence Hughes Class Action Website

by Simon in

jw
friends

http://www.watchtower-victims.org/.

pretty simple for the time being but no doubt it will change and develop over time.. i will do a banner ad to link to it and would encourage anyone who can publicise it to do so.

feel free to copy the banner when it is posted on here.

UnDisfellowshipped

I think Lawrence Hughes is the "Shunned Father" who fought against the Watchtower Society's No-Blood Policy for his daughter, but I am not sure.

23

Disfellowshipping Changes

by UnDisfellowshipped in

jw
friends

paraphrase of the watchtower 1955, page 607:.

quote from the watchtower august 1st 1974 issue, page 465:.

quote from the watchtower august 1st 1980 issue, page 19:.

UnDisfellowshipped

sOOner, I am glad that this Thread helped you out some. I feel sad also for your mother.

Here is another Thread about Disfellowshipping: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36726&page=1&site=3

6

Past History of WT Regarding Disfellowshipped

by Scorpion in

past history of wt instructions regarding the disfellowshipped

and they might sometimes have the grandchildren visit them.

wt 9/15/1981, p. 29. jehovahs witnesses should hate ex-jws and those who oppose gods organization.

UnDisfellowshipped

Great Thread!

Thanks for Posting it!

Here is a Thread with tons of Disfellowshipping Quotes: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35751&site=3

33

Lawrence Hughes Class Action Website

by Simon in

jw
friends

http://www.watchtower-victims.org/.

pretty simple for the time being but no doubt it will change and develop over time.. i will do a banner ad to link to it and would encourage anyone who can publicise it to do so.

feel free to copy the banner when it is posted on here.

UnDisfellowshipped

But when government or the courts start to try to change a religion's beliefs, I have a problem with that, no matter who the religion is.

I agree with Simon and Sister Grace.

Also, their child molestation Policy is VERY COMPLICATED, because they claim that it is the BIBLE that is telling them they must have this POLICY (which is not true at all)!

So, you see, they claim that their Pedophile Policy is a Religious Interpretation.

20

Does the Society believe in the Trinity?

by Fatal Error in

rev 22:12.

(rev.

" (rev.

UnDisfellowshipped

This looks like a Great Thread!

Here is a Thread I started about the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA in Revelation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3

Also, here are a few Watchtower Quotes:

What does the Watchtower say about WORSHIPING JESUS CHRIST:

Watchtower November 1879 (When Charles Taze Russell was President):

"His position is contrasted with men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having 'all power in heaven and earth'. Hence it is said, 'Let all of the angels of God worship him' [that must included Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has 'by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.'"
(The Bracketed Comment about Michael was in the original)

The Watchtower Reprints, March 1880, Page 83:

"And although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him (Jesus Christ), it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshipped him. - Matt. 28: 9, 17"

The Watchtower Reprints, April 15th 1893, Page 1515:

"It is since his resurrection that the message has gone forth - 'All power in heaven and in earth is given unto me.' (Matt. 28:18) Consequently it is only since then that he could be called the Almighty (as in Rev. 1:8)"

The Watchtower Reprints, July 15th 1898, Page 2337:

"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a God."

The Watchtower Reprints, May 15th 1892, Page 1410:

"to worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong"

Zion's Watchtower July 15th 1898 Issue:

Worshipping Jesus Christ is a duty of the believers

The Finished Mystery (SS-7) (1917 Edition):

Page 15:

"....I am THE Alpha and I AM ALSO THE Omega. - Alpha is the first letter, and Omega the last letter, of the Greek alphabet. The Beginning and the Ending. -Our Lord's great honor is shown in that He was not only the first of God's creation, but the last. From this we are to understand that the great Jehovah did not directly employ His own power in creating either men or angels; but that He delegated His power to His Only-begotten Son. -Z. '93-115; Rev. 1:4; 16:5-7."

Page 188:

"Michael, - 'Who as God,' the Pope"

Page 318:

"....And He (said) SAITH unto me, (it is done,) I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.-" It was the Father's good pleasure that the Blessed One, the Only Begotten of the Father, should accomplish the entire program of redemption and restitution;"

The Watchtower August 15th 1941 Issue, Page 252:

"the Father will see to it that all creation shall worship the Son"

Make Sure of All Things Book (1953 Edition), Page 85:

"Christ to Be Worshipped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake."

The Watchtower January 1st 1954 Issue, Page 31:

"Consequently, since the Scriptures teach that Jesus Christ is not a trinitarian co-person with God the Father, but is a distinct person, the Son of God, the answer to the above question must be that no distinct worship is to be rendered to Jesus Christ now glorified in heaven."

Watchtower July 15th 1959 Issue, Page 421:

"Do not erroneously conclude that Christians are to worship Christ; that is not what he taught."

"The Word Who Is He? According to John" Book (1962 Edition):

Pages 4-5:

"Of course, the Bible reader who uses the generally accepted versions or translations will at once say; 'Why, there should be no difficulty about knowing who the Word is. It plainly says that the Word is God; and God is God.' But, in answer, we must say that not all our newer modern translations by Greek scholars read that way, So in the above-quoted Bible translations we are confronted with the expressions 'God' 'divine' 'god of a sort,' 'god, and 'a god,' Men who teach a triune God, Trinity, strongly object to the translation 'a god.'

They say, among other things, that it means to believe in polytheism. Or they call it Unitarianism or Arianism."

Page 40:

"So again we note that Jesus never spoke of himself as God or called himself God. He always put himself below God rather than on an equality with God."

Make Sure of All Things Book (1965 Edition):

Page 485:

"Jesus Christ Not One God with the Father

"The Father is Jesus' God"

"Jesus called his Father the "only true God," excluding himself"

"Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son"

Page 486:

"Jesus is, not God, but Mediator between God and men"

"Jesus did not claim to be God, but God's representative"

"Jesus Not Equal to the Father in Power and Glory, but Subject to Him"

"Even in heaven he is subject to the Father"

"Only Jehovah Is from Everlasting to Everlasting"

Page 487:

"Son of God had a beginning, was created"

"Oneness of Father and Son No More Mysterious than Unity of True Christians."

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1950, 1961, and 1970 Editions):

Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels worship him'

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1971 and 1984 Editions):

Hebrews 1:6: "But when He again brings his First-born into the inhabited earth, he says: 'And let all God's angels do obeisance to him'

Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Holy Scriptures (1985 Edition), Page 529:

Reference to Jesus as "Ho Theos" (The God)

The Watchtower July 1st 1986 Issue, Page 31:

"The title ho theos (the God, or God) which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the N(ew) T(estament) to Jesus Himself."

Should You Believe in the Trinity Brochure (1989 Edition):

Page 14:

"Jesus, in his prehuman existence, was 'the first-born of all creation.' (Colossians 1:15, NJB) He was 'the beginning of God's creation.' (Revelation 3:14, RS, Catholic edition). 'Beginning' (Greek, ar-khe') cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the 'beginner' of God's creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek work ar-khe' more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of 'beginning.' Yes, Jesus was created by God as the beginning of God's invisible creations."

Page 15:

"The Bible calls Jesus the 'only-begotten Son' of God. (John 1:14; 3:16, 18: 1 John 4:9) Trinitarians say that since God is eternal, so the Son of God is eternal. But how can a person be a son and at the same time be as old as his father?"

The Watchtower February 1st 1991 Issue, Page 17:

"Jesus Christ further deserves honor because he is Jehovah's chief angel, or archangel. On what basis do we reach that conclusion? Well, the prefix "arch," meaning "chief" or "principal," implies that there is only one archangel. God's Word speaks of him in reference to the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. We read: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1 Thessalonians 4:16) This archangel has a name, as we read at Jude 9: "When Michael the archangel had a difference with the Devil and was disputing about Moses' body, he did not dare to bring a judgment against him in abusive terms, but said: 'May Jehovah rebuke you.'" In not running ahead of Jehovah by daring to bring judgment against the Devil, Jesus thus honored his heavenly Father."

The Watchtower November 1st 1993 Issue, Page 23:

"In 1914, Jesus; the heavenly warrior Michael; became King of God's heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 11:15; 12:7-9)"

The Watchtower February 1st 1994 Issue, Page 6:

"The book of Revelation explains: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [the resurrected Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."

The Watchtower July 15th 1995 Issue, Page 5:

"The Bible also describes what happened shortly after Jesus' enthronement. It says: "War broke out in heaven: Michael [Jesus Christ] and his angels battled with the dragon [Satan the Devil], and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven."

Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life Book (1995 Edition):

Page 32:

"Others have distorted Jesus' role, worshipping him as Almighty God."

Page 39:

"Jesus was called God's 'only begotten Son' because Jehovah created him directly. (John 3:16) As 'the firstborn of all creation,' Jesus was then used by God to create all other things. (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14)"

The Watchtower November 1st 1995 Issue, Page 8:

"The foremost angel, both in power and authority, is the archangel, Jesus Christ, also called Michael."

Also, the "My Book of Bible Stories" Book, in the Chapter about the 3 "Wise Men" and the "Star", it says that Jesus Christ was WORSHIPED!

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 September 2002 5:2:18

Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 18 September 2002 0:51:42

8

Thank you all so much!

by Golden Girl in

jw
friends

i couldn't have made it through these last few days without you all!

thanks for the great links and suggestions in my e mail!

hubby went to have the porta-cath put in for chemo today and his blood had something elevated that keeps it from clotting.

UnDisfellowshipped

I thought I would Post this in case anyone needs to know what is supposed to be "ALLOWED" by the Society now:

I don't know 100% what the Society's Current Blood Policy is (I don't know if even the Governing Body and Elders do anymore).

However, here is what I have heard is now ALLOWED by the Society:

Vaccinations (Shots) even if they contain Blood!

Organ Transplants even though the Organs contain Blood! (Probably a large amount of Blood too!)

Bone-Marrow Transplants

Hemophiliac Blood Treatments

All sorts of Blood Fractions

Here is a Pharisee-Like List of the "Acceptable Blood Fractions" which Witnesses are now allowed to accept (at least this is what I have heard, not 100% sure):

*Factor VIII
*Gamma Globulin
*Blood Plasma Proteins
*Albumin
*Immune Globulins
*Rh Immune Globulin
*Hemophiliac Preparations
*Clotting Factors
*Synthetic Hormone EPO (Erythropoietin) (contains only "a small amount of Albumin")
*Autologous Blood (Autotransfusion) (Where your own Blood "flows out through a tube to the Artificial Organ that pumps and filters (or oxygenates) it, and then it returns to the patient's circulatory system")
*Hemodilution
*HemoPure (Cow's Blood)
*PolyHeme

Also in a 1960's Article the Watchtower Society said that Jehovah's Witness Doctors CAN GIVE Blood Transfusions to those evil "Worldly People!" (However Witnesses are not even allowed to give Blood to their PETS -- Does this seem odd? I guess the Watchtower Society is basically saying that "Worldly People" are so wicked that it doesn't matter if you give them Blood, yet your Pets are better than Worldly People)

Jehovah's Witnesses are now allowed to accept ALL of the components of Blood, as long as you separate the components and then accept them!

Is there any logic in this?

I will try to post Quotes about their Blood Policy soon.

Also, check out http://www.ajwrb.org for TONS of info on the Society's Blood Policies.

27

First and the Last of Rev 1:17 - why in caps?

by Trotafox in

jw
friends

referring to the excellent "kitchen" witness scene in gregbetre's thread regarding jw's denying the deity of the christ, i do have one question..... .

rev 1:8; 17-18; 22:13 states that jesus christ is the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, and the beginning and the end.

i don't think it is true that all jw's will say that rev 1:17 refers to jehovah.

UnDisfellowshipped

This is a pretty good Thread going!

If anyone is interested, here is a Thread I put up about the ALPHA AND THE OMEGA and THE FIRST AND THE LAST in Revelation: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=36024&site=3

Undecided said:

If Christ is God, then the whole idea of the ransom goes out the window. Could God give himself to himself as a ransom? Does he talk to himself like on the cross when he said,"Why have you forsaken me? It makes no sense, like most of the other doctrines of Christendom.
Ken P.

First of all, Undecided, that is NOT what most Christians believe. It is the Watchtower Society who always mixes things up and confuses everyone about the Trinity (Tri-Unity, which means Three in Unity).

Here is an example:

First, a Watchtower Publication will say, this is the definition of Trinity: Three Different Persons, all Eternal, all Co-Equal, are in UNION as the ONE GOD (all Three have all of the Divine Qualities and Attributes of God/Deity).

THIS IS TRUE, this is what most Trinitarians believe.

However, then later in the same Watchtower Publication, the Society will say something like, "how can anyone believe in THREE DIFFERENT GODS when the Scriptures say there is only ONE GOD."

However, by doing that, the Society CONTRADICTED itself, and changed the meaning of Trinity from Three Different Persons all being in UNION as One God, into Three Different Gods! (which is definitely NOT what most Trinitarians believe)

Also, though, the Society will also say that "Who was Jesus praying to if He was God?"

Well, there's a BIG PROBLEM with that question, because nearly all Trinitarians (except Pentecostals I think) believe that The Father is God, but He is a SEPARATE PERSON than the Son and the Holy Spirit, and also the Son and the Holy Spirit are SEPARATE PERSONS from each other.

So, then, to answer the question, "Who was Jesus praying to if He was God?", Jesus Christ, the Son, was praying to the Father (who is a SEPARATE PERSON)!

Also, it was God the Son who Sacrificed His Life to the Father!

When Jesus said on Cross, "Why have you forsaken me?", He was talking to His Father, not Himself!

The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all GOD in their Nature and Essence.

The Son is in subjection to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is in subjection to the Father and the Son. But all Three are in UNION as God.

Also, there are several Scriptures that say that Jesus Christ is God, even some that say He is the Almighty God. There are also Scriptures that call Jesus Christ JEHOVAH (YAHWEH)!

I tried my best to explain it, I don't know how good I did.

I am by no means a Bible expert, and I have not read all of the Bible, but I have A LOT about Jesus Christ in the Scriptures, and it appears to me from what I have read that the Bible is definitely saying that Jesus Christ is God.

Let me ask a few questions:

Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the only One to be WORSHIPED?

Exodus 34:14: For you shall not bow to another god, for Jehovah whose Name is Jealous, He is a jealous God

Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY ALONE is the only One to be PRAYED TO?

Psalm 65:1: To the chief musician. A Psalm and Song of David. To You silence is praise, O God, in Zion; and to You is a vow paid.
Psalm 65:2: To You who hears prayer, all flesh comes.

Isn't it true that GOD ALMIGHTY will not share His Glory and Honor with ANYONE ELSE?

Isaiah 42:8: I am Jehovah; that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images.

Isaiah 48:11: For My sake, for My sake, I will act; for how is it defiled? And I will not give My glory to another.
Isaiah 48:12: Listen to Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the First; surely I am the Last.

Now, look at these Scriptures about JESUS CHRIST:

Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He (the Father) brought the First-Born (Jesus) into the world, He said, "And let all the angels of God worship Him."

Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Acts 7:60: And placing the knees, he cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not make stand this sin to them. And having said this, he fell asleep (in death).

John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who has sent Him.
John 5:24: Truly, truly, I say to you, The one who hears My Word, and believes the One who has sent Me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

So, there you have it, the Bible says ONLY GOD is to be WORSHIPED, and yet, THE FATHER commands the angels to WORSHIP JESUS!

The Bible says that JEHOVAH GOD is the Hearer of Prayers, and yet, the Disciples and Apostles PRAYED TO JESUS!

The Bible says that JEHOVAH GOD will NOT share His Glory and Honor with ANYONE or ANYTHING else, and yet, JESUS says that ALL PEOPLE should HONOR THE SON JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER!

I'd love to see everyone's comments on this Post.

24

The foretold prophet was not Jesus

by plmkrzy in

the old testament.

muhammad in the bible, .

source: muhammad in the bible, .

UnDisfellowshipped

LMAO at plmkrzy, Thanks for this Thread!