Posts by aqwsed12345

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

aqwsed12345

@Sea Breeze

The assertion that "the apostles and early Christian leaders all taught a literal 1000-year Kingdom Reign on earth" overlooks the diversity of eschatological views in early Christianity. While some early Christians did hold millennialist views (often referred to as chiliasm), it is a mistake to claim this was a uniform teaching among the apostles or the early Church.

The claim that "Amillennialism started with Augustine in the early 400s" is overly simplistic. Augustine's views did significantly shape Western Christianity's eschatology, but amillennialism—or the idea that the "millennium" is symbolic and not a literal earthly reign—existed before Augustine. Many of the Church Fathers, including Origen and Clement of Alexandria, rejected literal millennialism well before Augustine. They saw the millennium in Revelation as symbolizing the present reign of Christ through the Church, a spiritual reign, not a future physical one.

Furthermore, while some early Christians held millennial views (e.g., Papias and Justin Martyr), others, like Eusebius and Dionysius of Alexandria, strongly opposed it. Millennialism was not the universally accepted belief of the early Church but one of many competing interpretations of eschatology.

Amillennialism, which sees the "1000 years" in Revelation 20 as symbolic, is not a denial of Christ's reign. Instead, it understands the "reign" of Christ as spiritual, beginning with His resurrection and continuing through His Church until His return at the end of history. Revelation, as apocalyptic literature, uses symbolic language extensively. For instance, the "1000 years" is interpreted symbolically to represent a complete period of time—a concept in line with biblical use of numbers for symbolic purposes.

The idea that Christ's reign must be a literal, physical kingdom of 1000 years on earth contradicts the way Revelation and similar apocalyptic texts are generally understood. Revelation is filled with symbolic language: the numbers, beasts, and other imagery convey deeper spiritual truths rather than literal events.

The critique of the Watchtower Society in the context of this argument is somewhat misplaced. While it is true that the Watchtower's timeline and theology of the 1914 invisible return of Christ are flawed, this has little bearing on the broader discussion between millennialism and amillennialism. In fact, most Christian groups, including the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, and many Protestant denominations, reject the idea of an invisible return of Christ and hold that Christ will return visibly to judge the living and the dead (as stated in the Nicene Creed).

Furthermore, the argument about "two-group salvation" is also misplaced in the broader Christian tradition. Most mainstream Christian denominations hold that salvation is through grace by faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and do not divide believers into different classes with distinct destinies (e.g., 144,000 in heaven versus others on earth). Amillennialism emphasizes that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile—are one in Christ and that there is no distinction in salvation based on when one lived or their supposed role in a future millennium. The New Covenant is for all who are in Christ, uniting believers in the forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

The claim that "the apostles and early Christian leaders all taught a literal 1000-year Kingdom Reign" misrepresents early Christian diversity. For example, Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, while millennialists, did not teach a uniformly accepted view. Their writings indicate that while they believed in a future physical reign of Christ on earth, this was not the only eschatological view. Others, such as Origen, opposed millennialism as too carnal and inconsistent with spiritual realities.

Moreover, the assertion that early church leaders exclusively believed in a literal millennium ignores how allegorical interpretations flourished in the early Church, especially in Alexandria, where theologians like Origen and Clement favored symbolic readings of Scripture, including eschatological passages. They emphasized the spiritual reign of Christ and the present experience of God's Kingdom through the Church.

Finally, the theological inconsistency in the premillennialist framework comes from the idea of a temporary earthly kingdom, followed by another resurrection and final judgment. The amillennial view maintains that Christ's return will mark the final judgment and the inauguration of the new heavens and new earth, as described in Revelation 21. This view is more consistent with the overall teaching of the New Testament, where Christ's second coming is described as the climax of history, not the beginning of a temporary earthly kingdom followed by another transition.

While millennialism has been part of Christian eschatology, it is far from the only view. Amillennialism, with its symbolic interpretation of the millennium, better aligns with the apocalyptic genre of Revelation and is consistent with the overarching narrative of the New Testament, where Christ’s victory over sin and death is understood as an already-present reality, culminating in His final return and the establishment of the new creation.

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

aqwsed12345

Some resources:

The Jehovah’s Witness interpretation of two groups—one destined for heavenly life and the other for life on a restored earthly paradise—is a key aspect of their theology. However, there are significant issues with this two-class system when compared to the broader biblical context.

The idea of two distinct “classes” of believers—one for heaven and one for earth—does not align with the overall message of the New Testament, which emphasizes the unity of all believers in Christ. Ephesians 4:4 states, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called." This clearly indicates that there is only one hope for believers, not two separate destinies. All believers are united in the same hope of eternal life with God, whether in a renewed heaven or a renewed earth.

Revelation is a highly symbolic book, and interpreting the 144,000 as a literal number while interpreting other elements symbolically creates inconsistency. The number 144,000 can be understood symbolically as representing the fullness of God's people. The 144,000 is derived from 12 (representing the tribes of Israel) multiplied by itself and then by 1,000 (often symbolizing a large number). This suggests that the 144,000 represents all of God's people throughout history, not just a select few. This symbolic interpretation aligns with the vision of the “great multitude” in Revelation 7:9, which describes an innumerable group from all nations who stand before the throne of God.

In passages like Galatians 3:28, Paul states that "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." This points to a unity among believers, rather than a division into separate classes with different destinies. The "Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) includes all believers in Christ, not a select group of 144,000 distinct from others.

Revelation 5:9-10 says that believers are made "a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth." This reign is not limited to a specific number of 144,000 but applies to all those redeemed by Christ’s blood. 1 Peter 2:9 similarly describes all believers as "a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession."

The "first resurrection" mentioned in Revelation 20:5-6 refers to the resurrection of believers who will reign with Christ during His millennial kingdom. This reign is part of the victory of Christ's kingdom, in which all believers participate. The "rest of the dead" in this passage are those who are not part of this first resurrection, but this does not necessarily imply a separate group with a different destiny. The distinction is not between believers who reign and believers who are merely subjects, but between the faithful who partake in the victory of Christ and those who do not.

Revelation 21:1-3 describes a new heaven and a new earth where God will dwell with His people. This vision of unity between heaven and earth contrasts with the idea of two separate classes of believers. The entire creation is renewed, and God’s people—united as one—dwell with Him forever. This reflects the broader biblical theme of the unification of heaven and earth, rather than a division between those who go to heaven and those who remain on earth.

While Jehovah’s Witnesses interpret the 144,000 as a literal number destined for heavenly life and see a distinction between two groups of believers, this interpretation does not align with the larger biblical narrative of unity in Christ and a shared hope for all believers. The symbolic nature of Revelation, the emphasis on one hope for all Christians, and the vision of a renewed heaven and earth all point to a unified destiny for believers, where all reign with Christ as part of His eternal kingdom. The two-class system creates unnecessary divisions that are not supported by Scripture when interpreted in its full context.

167

How did JWs arrive at a clearer understanding of what the Bible teaches than other Christian denominations?

by slimboyfat in

for jws who believe that jehovah had a hand in reviving the truth in the nineteenth century this is enough explanation for how jws managed to achieve a closer approximation to early christian beliefs and practices than other groups.

but is there an explanation for this phenomenon that doesn’t rely on supernatural intervention?

new testament scholar james dunn explains the difficulty of interpreting the biblical texts in this way:.

aqwsed12345

Some resources:

The assertion that Jehovah's Witnesses have a "clearer understanding" of the Bible assumes a superior interpretive framework compared to traditional Christianity. However, this claim is subjective and must be critically examined. The argument that JWs rejected the traditional dogmas of the early church and returned to "raw" biblical material may sound appealing, but it overlooks centuries of theological development guided by the Holy Spirit, as witnessed by the early Church Fathers and ecumenical councils.

The New Testament itself provides evidence of an authoritative teaching structure established by the apostles, which was intended to be passed down through apostolic succession (2 Timothy 2:2; 1 Timothy 3:15). The early Church did not abandon Scripture but worked diligently to preserve and transmit its message through councils and creeds, such as Nicaea and Chalcedon, which sought to clarify Christological doctrines in the face of heretical movements. The idea that a complete break from these traditions, as advocated by the Jehovah's Witnesses, results in a purer form of Christianity ignores the guidance that these councils offered in preserving orthodoxy.

One of the most significant breaks from traditional Christianity by the Jehovah’s Witnesses is their rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity. They claim to have "reinvented" Christianity by rejecting traditional dogmas that they believe obscure the truth. Yet, the Trinity is not an invention of fourth-century councils but a doctrine rooted in the New Testament itself. The terms "Father," "Son," and "Holy Spirit" are used in a relational context (Matthew 28:19), and passages such as John 1:1, John 8:58, and Philippians 2:6 show that Jesus was understood as divine in the early Christian community.

The early Church did not "drift away" from the teachings of Scripture; rather, it responded to heresies that misunderstood or distorted the identity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. For instance, the Arian heresy, which denied the full divinity of Christ, was directly addressed by the Council of Nicaea. The resulting Nicene Creed was a defense of the biblical truth that Jesus is fully God and fully man, not a deviation from biblical teaching.

Jason BeDuhn praises the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation for its “fresh approach” to Bible translation, free from the biases of traditional Christianity. However, this argument overlooks the substantial scholarly criticism that the NWT has received for its deliberate mistranslations that conform to Jehovah’s Witnesses’ theological positions.

A prime example is the rendering of John 1:1 in the NWT as "the Word was a god," rather than "the Word was God." This translation violates standard Greek grammar and has been rejected by mainstream biblical scholars across various denominations. The translation reflects the Jehovah’s Witnesses' denial of Christ's deity rather than a "fresh" or "innocent" reading of the text. Similar issues arise with their translation of Colossians 1:16-17, where the word "other" is inserted to suggest that Christ is a created/made being (while according to the NT the Son is born/begotten), despite the absence of the term in the Greek text.

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that traditional Christianity became corrupted shortly after the apostolic age, and they seek to “restore” “true” Christianity. This notion aligns with many restorationist movements but lacks historical grounding. The early Church, despite persecution and doctrinal challenges, remained steadfast in its core beliefs about Christ, salvation, and the sacraments. The apostolic succession ensured doctrinal continuity, and the early creeds were expressions of the Church's commitment to apostolic teaching, not inventions that deviated from it.

To suggest that the early Church quickly fell into apostasy undermines Jesus' promise in Matthew 16:18 that even "the gates of Hades will not overcome" His Church. This promise implies a continuity of truth and divine protection over His Church throughout history. The notion of a complete apostasy, only to be restored in the 19th century, does not align with the biblical understanding of the Church as the "pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15).

While Jehovah’s Witnesses reject church tradition, the New Testament itself does not advocate for "Scripture alone" as the sole authority. In addition, the JWs' treatment of the Bible goes beyond the "sola Scriptura" principle of the Protestant Reformation, and can rather be described as "nuda Scriptura" based speculation. As mentioned earlier, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 instructs believers to "stand firm and hold to the traditions" passed down by the apostles. This indicates that oral tradition and the living teaching authority of the Church were essential for preserving the faith. The early Church recognized the need for an authoritative teaching body to interpret Scripture correctly and guard against heresies.

In contrast, Jehovah’s Witnesses, by breaking from tradition and historical Christian orthodoxy, have introduced significant doctrinal errors, such as their denial of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and their belief in Christ's invisible return in 1914. These positions are not supported by a plain reading of Scripture but are the result of unique interpretations that deviate from the historic Christian faith.

While the Jehovah's Witnesses claim to have „rediscovered” “true” Christianity by rejecting traditional dogmas and starting afresh with the Bible, their approach has led to doctrinal innovations that are not supported by Scripture or early Christian history. The rejection of the Trinity, the reinterpretation of key biblical texts, and the assertion that the early Church quickly fell into apostasy conflict with the biblical promise of Christ's continued presence with His Church and the historical evidence of doctrinal continuity.

The Catholic Church, along with other traditional Christian denominations, maintains a direct link to the teachings of the apostles through Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium. This continuity ensures that the faith "once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3) is preserved and faithfully taught.

73

"Jehovah" In The New Testament.

by LostintheFog1999 in

i see they have updated their list of translations or versions where some form of yhwh or jhvh appears in the new testament.. https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/study-bible/appendix-c/divine-name-new-testament-2/.

aqwsed12345

The notion that Christians were deliberately trying to obscure God's name for theological reasons, such as promoting the Trinity, is not supported by the evidence. Even Arian Christians, who rejected the orthodox Trinitarian position, used "Kyrios" instead of YHWH in their Scriptures. This shows that the substitution was a textual tradition, not a theological conspiracy.

There is no source to support that in the early Christian era, anyone would have made an issue out of the Tetragrammaton. At the same time, it is completely unfounded to assume that such a tendentious and systematic falsification of the Bible was overcome without a trace, considering the strict adherence of the early Christian community to the accuracy of Scripture. When Jerome began translating the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin for the Vulgate, a controversy arose between him and Augustine. Augustine reports that a bishop nearly lost his congregation because Jerome translated the name of the plant in Jonah 4:6 (in Hebrew kikayon קִיקָיוֹן, which corresponds mostly to the castor bean plant) as "hedera" (ivy), while in the previously used Vetus Latina texts, the word "cucurbita" (gourd) appeared, which was based on the Septuagint's translation of κολοκύνθη. When the bishop read Jerome's new translation aloud in the church, a disturbance arose among the congregation, and they protested against the unusual word choice, causing uproar.

For Augustine, this incident demonstrated that Jerome's Hebrew-based translation could lead to unrest in the congregations, as the faithful had become accustomed to the earlier texts based on the Septuagint. Augustine therefore feared that such changes in the new translations could divide the Church, and he requested Jerome to indicate where the Vulgate differed from the Septuagint in his translation. However, Jerome insisted that the Hebrew text was more accurate and thus also more correct.

Here, perhaps, we should consider how, if such a theologically insignificant translation issue could cause such a scandal, how realistic is the Watchtower Society's idea that "apostate copyists" "erased" "Jehovah" from the New Testament, and no one ever noticed, no one ever protested, and while a plant's name almost caused riots, no one was bothered by alleged substantial falsifications regarding the identity of God in the text...

62

Ten reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses have the true religion (plus a bonus one)

by slimboyfat in

thinking back when i was a true believer these are probably the top ten reasons why i believed jws are the true religion.

1. they show love among themselves by not going to war.

not killing your fellow believers in any circumstances, including war, would seem to be a very basic requirement for true christianity.

aqwsed12345

Refutation of JW Arguments

They show love among themselves by not going to war.
- Refutation: While it’s true that JWs refuse to participate in war, this alone does not validate their claim to being the true religion. Pacifism is practiced by other Christian groups as well (e.g., Quakers, Mennonites). More importantly, Christian teaching acknowledges the complexity of moral decisions, including just war theory, which holds that under certain conditions, armed defense may be morally justified (e.g., to protect the innocent). The Catholic Church has always upheld peace as a core value but also recognizes the need to address the reality of injustice, oppression, and evil in the world.
They honor Jehovah’s name by using it and giving it prominence.
- Refutation: The use of “Jehovah” as God's name is not the exclusive mark of true Christianity. The pronunciation “Jehovah” is a relatively modern adaptation, and scholars generally agree that the original pronunciation was closer to “Yahweh.” What’s important is not merely using the name but living out God's will and message. The Catholic Church, while traditionally using “Lord” or “God” in liturgical settings, emphasizes a deep, personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, who is God incarnate, rather than focusing on specific linguistic forms.
  The Bible uses a variety of names and titles for God, such as Elohim, El Shaddai, Adonai, and Theos (Greek for "God"). Jesus Himself referred to God most often as Father (John 17:1), emphasizing a personal relationship with God rather than focusing on a particular name. If simply using the name "Jehovah" were the key to being the true religion, we would expect the New Testament writers, including Jesus and the apostles, to emphasize the use of this name exclusively. However, they do not.
  If using God’s name in a specific form were essential to true worship, it is curious that the New Testament does not contain the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). The New Testament writers used "Kyrios" (Greek for "Lord") when referring to God, reflecting the Greek-speaking context in which they wrote. Even when quoting Old Testament passages that originally contained the Tetragrammaton, they used "Lord" rather than "YHWH."
  Many Christian denominations, including Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions, honor God deeply without using the specific name "Jehovah." They focus on faith in Christ, the sacraments, good works, and a personal relationship with God. To claim that only one group is the "true religion" based solely on the use of a specific name dismisses the profound faith and devotion found across a wide spectrum of Christian belief.
They reject the post-biblical teaching of the Trinity.
- Refutation: The doctrine of the Trinity is rooted in Scripture and was developed through centuries of theological reflection and Church councils (such as Nicaea in 325 AD), where early Christians sought to express the mystery of God revealed in Christ. While the word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, the concept is derived from biblical passages (e.g., Matthew 28:19, John 1:1-14, 2 Corinthians 13:14) that affirm the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct persons within one Godhead. JWs' rejection of the Trinity distances them from the historical Christian faith that was universally recognized from the earliest councils.
They teach the truth about who Jesus is as God’s firstborn and his loyal servant.
- Refutation: JWs deny the full divinity of Christ, reducing him to a created being. This belief contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture that Christ is both fully divine and fully human (John 1:1-14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:3). The Council of Nicaea affirmed that Jesus is "of one substance with the Father," refuting the Arian heresy, which also tried to subordinate Christ to a created status. Catholic teaching upholds the orthodox understanding of Christ as co-eternal and co-equal with the Father, which is essential for the doctrine of salvation.
They point to God’s kingdom as the only hope for mankind and avoid politics or social movements.
- Refutation: While JWs avoid political involvement, this stance is overly simplistic. Christians are called to engage with the world to promote justice, mercy, and the common good. The Catholic Church teaches that Christians must work for the transformation of society in line with Gospel values, which sometimes involves engagement in social and political issues. The Church, following Christ’s example, calls for both spiritual conversion and action in the world to alleviate suffering, promote peace, and uphold human dignity (e.g., Catholic Social Teaching).
They preach and publish in more languages than any other group.
- Refutation: While the worldwide reach of JWs is notable, it is not unique to them. The Catholic Church, being the largest Christian body in the world, also engages in extensive missionary work, translating the Bible and teaching materials into numerous languages. Furthermore, Catholicism has a universal presence in nearly every country, and the Catholic Church has long been a leader in education, healthcare, and social services, far surpassing any other religious organization in terms of global influence and reach.
  The number of languages in which a religious group preaches or publishes material is not a valid measure of truth or divine favor. Many religious organizations and secular institutions operate in numerous languages across the globe, but that doesn't automatically make them the bearers of ultimate truth.
  
  Various religious and non-religious organizations operate in multiple languages. The Roman Catholic Church, for example, has global reach and publishes material in many languages, including Bibles, catechisms, and papal encyclicals. Missionary organizations from various Christian denominations also translate and preach in hundreds of languages worldwide, aiming to spread their message.
  
  Similarly, multinational corporations like Google or the United Nations function in many languages across the world, facilitating communication across diverse populations. This global scope does not imply that they hold any religious truth; it simply indicates organizational capacity.
  
  Nowhere in the Bible is the scope of language translation mentioned as a marker for identifying the true faith. Truth in religious practice is associated with following Christ's teachings, living a life of love, and upholding sound doctrine—not with the quantity of languages in which materials are distributed. The early church, for instance, was small and localized, yet was recognized by its faithfulness to Christ's teachings, not by the number of languages it spoke.
Their founder Russell rediscovered basic Bible truths.
- Refutation: Charles Taze Russell’s interpretations of Scripture diverge significantly from historic Christian beliefs. His teachings, such as the denial of Christ’s divinity and the rejection of the Trinity, were not “rediscoveries” but rather new interpretations that departed from orthodox Christian doctrine. The early Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, faithfully transmitted the teachings of Christ and the apostles, which were preserved through Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. Russell’s reinterpretations represent a break from this continuity, rather than a return to biblical truth.
  The claim that Russell rediscovered "basic Bible truths" assumes that true Christianity had been "lost" or "corrupted" for almost 1900 years, until Russell’s teachings. This idea contradicts Jesus' promise that His Church would endure throughout history. In Matthew 16:18, Jesus said, “The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” This indicates that the Church founded by Christ would not be overcome by error or cease to exist. Similarly, Matthew 28:20 records Jesus saying, “I am with you always, to the end of the age.” This suggests that true Christianity would never completely disappear, nor would it require "rediscovery."
  
  Galatians 1:8-9 strongly warns against the acceptance of any "other gospel" than the one initially preached by the apostles. If Christianity had indeed been corrupted for nearly two millennia, it would imply that Christ’s own Church had failed, which is inconsistent with Christ's promise to preserve His Church. Russell's new teachings—such as denying the Trinity, the physical resurrection of Jesus, and the eternal punishment of the wicked—represent significant deviations from the historic Christian faith taught by the apostles and upheld for centuries.
  
  Early Christianity, as seen in the New Testament, relied on the authority of the apostles and their successors. Jesus granted Peter and the apostles the authority to lead His Church (Matthew 16:18-19; John 20:21-23). This authority has been passed down through apostolic succession, ensuring continuity in teaching and practice. Russell did not claim apostolic authority; he interpreted Scripture on his own, forming teachings contrary to the consensus of historic Christian doctrine.
  
  Many of the teachings introduced by Russell and later by the Watchtower Society have evolved or been revised over time. Predictions about specific dates for the end of the world (e.g., 1914, 1925, 1975) have repeatedly been shown to be false, causing the organization to shift its interpretations. Deuteronomy 18:20-22 warns that a prophet whose predictions do not come to pass is not to be trusted. This inconsistency raises serious questions about the validity of Russell's teachings as "rediscovered truths."
  
  The core doctrines of Christianity—such as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the resurrection—have been consistently taught from the time of the apostles through the early Church Fathers and throughout Church history. These doctrines are not later innovations but are rooted in Scripture and affirmed by the early Christian councils. Russell’s interpretations differ significantly from this historic consensus.
  
  While Russell may have brought attention to certain Bible topics, the claim that he "rediscovered" the true faith is historically and theologically problematic. The unbroken continuity of Christian doctrine from the apostles to the present, along with the clear warnings in Scripture about altering the gospel, suggests that true Christianity did not disappear after the apostles but has been faithfully transmitted throughout history. The Church that Jesus founded has always been present, preserving the faith as it was once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).
JWs have grown from a small group to a global movement.
- Refutation: Growth in numbers does not equate to truth. Many religious movements, some of which hold conflicting beliefs, have experienced significant growth. The Catholic Church, however, has existed since the time of Christ, spreading throughout the world despite persecution and division. Its endurance over two millennia, along with its ability to maintain doctrinal consistency and unity, is a testament to its divine foundation.
  The growth of a religious movement does not serve as evidence that it is divinely ordained or the bearer of religious truth. There are numerous examples of religious and secular movements that have grown significantly, but that does not prove that they are the "true religion."
  
  Islam, for example, has grown rapidly over the centuries and is now one of the largest religions in the world. Similarly, the Latter-day Saints (Mormons) have expanded from a small group to a global movement. Even secular movements like Communism gained significant global traction in the 20th century. Growth alone is not a reliable indicator of divine favor or truth.
  
  Jesus himself emphasized that the path to salvation would be narrow, and relatively few would find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Moreover, many of the early Christian communities were small and faced persecution; their faithfulness, not their size or expansion, was what mattered. Additionally, history is filled with examples of heretical movements that attracted large followings but did not adhere to biblical truth.
  
  Many organizations can grow rapidly due to various factors like persuasive recruitment strategies, high birth rates, or organizational policies that encourage constant expansion. This can happen regardless of the truthfulness of the belief system. Growth and numerical success can often reflect human organizational skill rather than divine endorsement.
  
  Preaching in many languages and rapid growth are not unique or divinely mandated markers of religious truth. The Bible emphasizes the importance of sound doctrine, adherence to Christ’s teachings, and the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) as true indicators of faithfulness to God. Therefore, these two factors alone cannot be used to conclusively prove that Jehovah's Witnesses are the true religion. Religious truth should be evaluated based on doctrinal fidelity to scripture, historical continuity, and the overall fruits of the religious community, rather than the number of languages in which it operates or the scale of its growth.
Each JW leader was divinely chosen for their role in advancing God’s purpose.
- Refutation: The claim that JW leaders were divinely chosen to lead a restoration of true Christianity lacks historical and theological grounding. Unlike the succession of popes in the Catholic Church, which follows the apostolic tradition beginning with St. Peter, JW leadership has no continuity with the apostolic era. The papacy has consistently maintained the unity and authority of the Church through apostolic succession, which the early Church Fathers upheld as crucial for preserving orthodoxy and communion with the universal Church.
Their teaching about humans inheriting eternal life on earth makes more sense.
- Refutation: The JW belief in earthly paradise for a select group is a novel interpretation not supported by the fullness of Scripture. The Catholic Church teaches the resurrection of the body and life everlasting, which includes the new heavens and the new earth (Revelation 21). However, the ultimate hope of Christians is union with God in eternal life, which includes the beatific vision—seeing God face to face. The Catholic understanding of heaven as the ultimate fulfillment of human longing aligns with the teachings of Christ and the early Church.
  While Jehovah's Witnesses emphasize eternal life on a restored earth for a majority of humanity, traditional Christian beliefs point to both a heavenly and earthly reality. Revelation 21:1-4 speaks of a new heaven and new earth, suggesting a renewal of creation where God will dwell with humanity. However, it does not exclusively promise that all faithful followers will remain on earth.
  Jesus also speaks of an eternal reward in heaven. For instance, Matthew 5:12 says, "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven," suggesting that heaven is the final destination for believers. Similarly, John 14:2-3 records Jesus promising his disciples, "I am going there to prepare a place for you," referring to heaven. These scriptures show that eternal life isn't restricted to the earthly realm but also extends to a heavenly inheritance for believers.
  Early Christianity focused more on the hope of the resurrection and eternal communion with God in heaven rather than a purely earthly destiny. The New Testament frequently speaks of the "kingdom of heaven" (e.g., Matthew 13:44), indicating a heavenly focus for salvation. The apostle Paul also emphasized that our citizenship is in heaven (e.g., Philippians 3:20) and that believers would be "with the Lord forever" (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 4:17). The idea of inheriting eternal life on earth isn't emphasized to the exclusion of heaven in early Christian teachings.
  Jehovah's Witnesses argue that passages like Psalm 37:29, which says, "The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever," point to a separate "class" for an earthly destiny. However, this interpretation needs to be seen within the broader context of scripture, which also discusses heavenly rewards. The traditional Christian understanding of eternal life embraces both heaven and earth, especially after the final resurrection when heaven and earth are united in God's plan (as seen in Revelation 21).
  Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Christ’s kingdom will rule over the earth, with 144,000 going to heaven to reign with Christ and the rest of the faithful living on earth. However, many Christian scholars understand Revelation 20 and the reign of Christ in more symbolic terms, where heaven and earth become one (as in Revelation 21:1-4) rather than maintaining a strict division between the two realms.
Their teaching on God’s sovereignty and vindication makes sense of suffering.
- Refutation: The JW explanation for suffering focuses heavily on the vindication of God’s sovereignty, but it lacks the richness of Catholic theology, which addresses human suffering in light of the Cross. The Catholic Church teaches that suffering, while a result of the Fall, can be redemptive when united with Christ’s suffering. The Church offers a profound understanding of suffering, not as mere punishment or a test of sovereignty, but as a way to participate in Christ’s redemptive work (Colossians 1:24).

Why Roman Catholicism Is the True Faith

Apostolic Succession and Continuity: The Catholic Church traces its origins directly to Christ and the apostles. Through apostolic succession, the Church maintains a continuous, unbroken line of leadership from St. Peter to the present pope. This ensures the preservation of true doctrine and the authentic interpretation of Scripture.
The Eucharist and the Sacraments: The Catholic Church teaches the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which is rooted in Scripture (John 6:51-58) and the teaching of the early Church Fathers. The sacraments are visible signs of God's grace, instituted by Christ, and are essential for the sanctification of believers.
Scripture and Tradition: Catholicism holds that the fullness of God’s revelation is found in both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Church is the divinely appointed guardian of this deposit of faith, ensuring that it is faithfully transmitted through the centuries (2 Thessalonians 2:15).
Magisterial Authority: The Catholic Church possesses the teaching authority (Magisterium) to interpret Scripture and Tradition. This authority, given by Christ to the apostles (Matthew 16:18-19; 18:18), safeguards the Church from error in matters of faith and morals.
Comprehensive Theology: Catholic teaching provides a coherent and comprehensive worldview that addresses all aspects of human life—spiritual, moral, intellectual, and social. Catholic theology offers deep insights into the nature of God, the purpose of human existence, and the meaning of suffering and salvation.
Historical Evidence: The Catholic Church has maintained doctrinal continuity and unity for over two millennia. The early Church Fathers, who lived closest to the apostles, bear witness to the Catholic understanding of key doctrines like the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the Eucharist, and the authority of the Church.

In conclusion, while Jehovah’s Witnesses present arguments in favor of their beliefs, they fall short when examined in light of Scripture, history, and Christian theology. The Roman Catholic Church, with its apostolic foundation, sacramental life, and comprehensive teaching, remains the true Church that Christ established.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

aqwsed12345

According to the Protestants, the Catholic Church has gone astray, and moreover, it leads others astray, with Satan himself guiding it. Well, according to our faith, the Catholic Church has never changed concerning the teachings of Christ, and it can be clearly proven (with countless documents) that the current Catholic doctrine is completely identical to that of the Church before the Constantinian shift. Even the Protestants acknowledge this. It can also be proven that no congregation similar to 15th-century Protestantism existed earlier. They often refer to various heretical sects as the carriers of the "true gospel," but they merely select teachings similar to their own from these sects, while no Protestant church adheres to the full teachings of any of these sects (some of which are quite grotesque). Thus, essentially, a Protestant claims that the true gospel of Christ was corrupted shortly after the apostles (within a few years or decades), Satan—whom the Lord had just recently defeated—took over the main role and seduced all Christian believers.

A man finally came along one and a half millennia (!) later, by the name of Martin Luther, a hot-tempered, rebellious, psychologically proven disturbed and uncertain monk, who, based on “a divine revelation” (which, according to his own admission, he received while on the toilet), finally restored the teachings of Christ and thus reopened the gates of heaven. For one and a half millennia, for 1500 years, no one could be saved because they did not know Protestant teachings, they were “idolaters” and “pagans.” For 1500 years, Christ helplessly watched His church serve Satan, even though He promised that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Mt 16:18), and He said, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (Mt 28:20), “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth.” (Jn 14:16), “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand." (Jn 10:27-29). So just consider how likely all of this is.

Not only Catholics, but also Protestants and so-called "independent" historians are clear on the fact that Peter certainly went to Rome, established a Christian community (= founded a church), and also died a martyr's death there. This is not only confirmed by early Christian literary and historical records — since without exception all early Christian writers associate Peter with Rome — but also completely supported by archaeological research. In 1968, the tunnels beneath the main altar of St. Peter's Basilica were excavated, and indeed, there they found a tomb from the first century, sealed by a rock bearing the inscription "Peter is here." Even the bones inside have been examined, and it turned out that they belong to a man in his sixties, who died by crucifixion in the first century. Moreover, in cities Peter passed through on his way to Rome, many things preserve the memory of his presence. Despite all this, some Protestant fundamentalists do not believe (or do not want to believe) that Peter went to Rome, simply because, according to them, the Bible is silent on the matter. For them, only the text of the Bible can provide a sure point of reference, and only as they interpret it. In their view, if the Bible does not mention it, then it could not have happened; and it makes no difference that the Bible does not deny that Peter went to Rome.

Indeed, the Scriptures do not explicitly mention that "Peter went to Rome, founded a church, and thus became the first bishop of Rome, or the pope." The travels of no apostle are recounted in detail, and even of the most discussed, the journeys of Saint Paul, we do not have a complete picture, and we only learn of his death from tradition. The claim that "Paul wrote six letters from Rome between AD 60 and 65" is also not found in the Bible, though it is considered accepted by this "Bible Christian." This, for example, comes from Protestant tradition, which furthermore—according to at least 95% of biblical scholars—is not even true. Paul most likely wrote only one letter from Rome, the Second Letter to Timothy, while the others—thought by some to originate from his Roman imprisonment—were written during his imprisonment in Ephesus between 53 and 58 (Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, Ephesians), or before his arrest in Rome, on his third missionary journey in 63-64 (1 Timothy, Titus). In 1 Timothy, Peter is not mentioned because by then he had already died. Nor does he mention him in the Letter to the Romans because at the time of writing, Peter was not in Rome (more on this later). As an apostle, Saint Peter was continuously traveling—just like Paul—not only to evangelize or to care for the churches he had founded, but also because he was in danger. From the beginning, the leader of the new "sect" was persecuted, not only by the Jews but also by Roman authorities. Rome became the number one enemy of Christians, and this latter fact (confirmed by numerous Roman records) implies that the Bible speaks of Peter’s stay in Rome.

In the First Letter of Peter, the apostle writes, “She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark." (1 Peter 5:13). At this time, two places were named Babylon: the ancient, famous Mesopotamian city, frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, and a small Roman garrison in Egypt (Babylon Fossatum). However, by then, the ancient Babylon no longer existed, except as ruins, and was as insignificant a settlement as the Egyptian Babylon. What would Peter, the foremost apostle, have been doing in either of these small villages? Nothing, because these are not the places being referred to. The Book of Revelation frequently speaks of Babylon but consistently as a “great and mighty city,” which can be clearly identified with Rome (cf. 14:8; chs. 16-18) (and in one case, with Jerusalem). Independent ancient sources also confirm that “Babylon” was a code name among Christians, referring to Rome. Therefore, Peter wrote his first letter from “Babylon”, that is, from Rome. This is also confirmed by the Acts of the Apostles. It says that after Peter miraculously escaped from prison, he “went to another place” (Greek: "eis héteron topon") (Acts 12:17). Here, Peter did not wish to hide his destination from his brothers, but he did from the Roman authorities. Therefore, he used this Greek phrase, which refers to the Book of Ezekiel, specifically Ezekiel 12:13, where this exact phrase is used. From this, we know that the "other place" is Babylon, or Rome. This event occurred around AD 42, meaning Peter founded the Christian community there at that time, but he did not remain permanently, as by AD 48, he was in Jerusalem for the Apostolic Council.

Saint Paul wrote the Letter to the Romans between AD 55-57, and he does not greet Peter because Peter was not in the city at that time; he only returned there a few years after the letter was written, around AD 60. Although Peter was not in Rome, Paul indirectly alludes to him, writing: "It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation... This is why I have often been hindered from coming to you." (Romans 15:20.22).

If we combine the scriptural references with archaeological findings and early Christian records, we get a consistent picture where all elements support each other. However, if we reject Peter's founding of the church in Rome, we are merely following an unreasonable prejudice instead of reason. One can choose.

If you are seriously interested in the topic, here is a recommended read: Carsten Peter Thiede [a Protestant scholar]: Simon Peter: From Galilee to Rome (1988).

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a "spirit creature" is a fundamental misunderstanding of the resurrection accounts in the New Testament. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was resurrected in a physical, glorified body, not as a spirit. In Luke 24:39, Jesus specifically invites His disciples to touch Him and see that He has flesh and bones. He goes on to say that a spirit does not have flesh and bones, thereby refuting the idea that He was a mere spirit. The glorified body Jesus had after His resurrection was capable of transcending physical limitations (like appearing in locked rooms), but it was still very much a physical body. This point is critical in Christian theology because it emphasizes the bodily resurrection of all believers (1 Corinthians 15:42-44), which does not involve a transformation into spirit beings.

The Bible consistently teaches that Jesus’ resurrection was a bodily resurrection, not merely spiritual. The New Testament emphasizes that Jesus' physical body was raised, not just his spirit:

Luke 24:39: Jesus, appearing to his disciples after his resurrection, says, "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." This is a direct statement where Jesus differentiates himself from a spirit, showing that he was resurrected with a physical body. He invites his disciples to touch him, proving he was not merely an immaterial spirit.
John 20:27: Jesus tells Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Jesus’ resurrection body still had the wounds from his crucifixion, showing continuity with the body that was crucified, not a temporary or newly created body. Thomas is invited to physically touch these wounds, which a purely spiritual body could not have.

These accounts explicitly refute the idea that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature who only materialized a temporary body. He was truly resurrected in the same body that was crucified, glorified but still physical.

Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that Jesus materialized a human body temporarily to demonstrate his ability to do so. However, Scripture portrays the resurrection body as permanent, glorified but still continuous with the earthly body:

Philippians 3:20-21: "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." This passage teaches that the resurrection body of Jesus is glorious, and it is the same kind of body that believers will receive. Jesus’ resurrection body is not just a temporary manifestation but a permanent transformation of his earthly body.
Romans 8:11: "And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." The resurrection of Jesus is directly connected to the resurrection of believers' physical bodies. This shows that the resurrection is a bodily event, not a spiritual transformation alone.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the 144,000 in Revelation will be resurrected similarly to Jesus, as spirit creatures at the end of the tribulation. However, this interpretation is speculative and not supported by the context of Revelation:

Revelation 20:4-6 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who were martyred for their faith. It speaks of a bodily resurrection of believers to reign with Christ during the millennium. There is no suggestion in the text that this resurrection is a spiritual transformation or that these individuals are raised as spirit creatures.
The Bible speaks of the general resurrection of the dead at the end of time, where both the righteous and unrighteous will be physically resurrected (cf. John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15). This demonstrates that resurrection in biblical teaching is always bodily—it is about the restoration and transformation of human bodies, not merely the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.

Jehovah's Witnesses overlook the significance of the incarnation and its permanence. Jesus did not abandon his human nature after the resurrection; rather, he remains fully God and man: 1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus." This shows that Jesus retains his humanity after his ascension. He continues to be the man Christ Jesus, indicating that his resurrection body was not discarded or temporary.

Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest that the 144,000 will have witnesses to their resurrection similar to Jesus. However, Jesus' resurrection is presented in the Bible as a unique and pivotal event, and no other resurrection is portrayed in the same manner:

Acts 1:9-11: When Jesus ascended, the disciples witnessed him go into heaven, and angels told them, "This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." This passage emphasizes that Jesus' return will be visible, just as his ascension was, reinforcing the idea that Jesus’ resurrection and ascension were bodily and not merely spiritual.
There is no biblical support for the claim that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures or that witnesses will observe their resurrection in the same way as they did Jesus’. Scripture teaches the resurrection of the body, and it is not restricted to the idea of purely spiritual resurrection.

The argument that the kingdom is not about rulership but a "family arrangement" that returns to the conditions of Eden is not supported by the broader scriptural understanding of the kingdom of God. The Bible consistently describes the kingdom as a reign and rulership (Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 22:29-30, Revelation 5:10). While it is true that the concept of the kingdom is meant to restore harmony between God and His creation, the Bible makes it clear that Christ and His followers will reign with Him (Revelation 20:4-6). The idea that the 144,000 have a special role in ruling with Christ is derived from a misreading of these passages, where the role of all believers is to share in the kingship of Christ.

The interpretation of "glory" as "love" is an oversimplification. While love is certainly a key aspect of Jesus' character, "glory" in biblical terms refers to the manifestation of divine power, majesty, and holiness (John 1:14; Romans 8:18). Jesus' glory was revealed not only in His humility and kindness but also in His divine authority, power, and eventual resurrection. Romans 8:17 says that believers will share in Christ's glory, which refers to their future glorified state, not merely love or service. This glory is not exclusive to a special group but applies to all believers who are united to Christ.

The claim that the 144,000 are firstfruits because they "are made perfect first" and will work between heaven and earth during the 1,000-year reign is speculative and not supported by a straightforward reading of the Bible. The idea of firstfruits in Scripture (e.g., James 1:18, Revelation 14:4) generally refers to those who are the first to receive the blessings of salvation, not to a special elite group that loses their humanity. Additionally, the idea that the 144,000 will "go back and forth between heaven and earth" is speculative and has no biblical basis. The Bible does not describe the saints in such a role. The teaching that the 144,000 will lose their human inheritance is contrary to the biblical promise of bodily resurrection and eternal life in a new heaven and new earth (Revelation 21:1-3). The entire body of believers will dwell with God in this renewed creation, not just a select few.

The analogy of birds and fish having different gifts to support the idea that the 144,000 have a different inheritance than the rest of humanity is flawed. The Bible teaches that all believers—those who trust in Christ—are co-heirs with Him (Romans 8:17). There is no indication of a two-tier system of salvation, where some believers receive a heavenly inheritance and others remain on earth in a lesser state. The notion that the 144,000 will receive a "different" inheritance contradicts the clear teaching of the New Testament that all believers will share in the same glory and inheritance (Colossians 3:23-24).

The claim that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit creature and merely materialized a temporary body to interact with his disciples is contradicted by biblical evidence. The New Testament clearly presents Jesus’ resurrection as bodily, with physical continuity between the body that was crucified and the body that was raised. This teaching extends to the resurrection of all believers, who will be raised in glorified physical bodies, not merely spiritual beings. The idea that the 144,000 will be resurrected as spirit creatures is speculative and lacks clear biblical foundation. The resurrection in Scripture is about the restoration and transformation of the physical body, not just the elevation of a person to a spiritual existence.

The biblical doctrine of resurrection and salvation affirms that all believers—whether Jew or Gentile, male or female—are united in Christ and share the same inheritance in the new creation. The idea of a select group becoming "spirit creatures" and ministering between heaven and earth lacks any solid biblical foundation. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation should be understood symbolically as representing the complete and redeemed people of God, not a literal, exclusive group. Salvation and resurrection are not about being divided into different classes, but about being united with Christ and sharing in His glory, which includes a bodily resurrection and eternal life with God in the new heavens and new earth.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

Have you even read my links?

To refute the idea that the 144,000 will be changed into "spirit creatures" and cease to be human, let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about salvation, resurrection, and the nature of humanity.

Biblical View of Resurrection: The Bible emphasizes the bodily resurrection, not transformation into spirit creatures. For instance, Jesus’ resurrection was physical, as demonstrated in Luke 24:39 where He says, "Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Jesus was resurrected with a glorified body, which shows that being human is integral to the Christian hope, not something to be left behind. The Bible never states that those who are redeemed lose their human nature and become spirit beings. In fact, Philippians 3:21 emphasizes that Christ "will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body," reinforcing the idea of bodily glorification, not a disembodied spiritual state.
No "Spirit Class" Doctrine: The New Testament never mentions a class of humans who will become non-human, spirit creatures. The idea of a heavenly government coming down to earth in Revelation 21:2 is symbolic of God’s presence with His people. The Bible speaks of a "new heaven and new earth" (Revelation 21:1), indicating that the redeemed will inhabit a physical reality where they will live eternally, not as spirit creatures but as glorified humans.
Humanity as God's Image: Humanity was made in the image of God (Genesis 1:26), and there is no suggestion in the Bible that humans were intended to become anything other than human. The redemption of mankind through Jesus Christ is about restoring humanity to its intended glory, not transforming it into a different type of being. Romans 8:23 speaks of the "redemption of our bodies," which refers to the resurrection and glorification of human bodies, not their replacement by spiritual forms.
Misinterpretation of 144,000: The number 144,000 in Revelation is often interpreted symbolically to represent the completeness of God’s people, drawn from all tribes and nations, and there is no clear biblical indication that this group is non-human or different from others saved by Christ. Revelation 14:4 describes them as "firstfruits for God and the Lamb," but this refers to their dedication and special role, not to their becoming spirit beings. They remain part of God’s human creation.
Hebrews 1:14 describes angels as "ministering spirits," but there is no indication in Scripture that humans are ever intended to become like angels or lose their humanity.

In conclusion, the Bible teaches that human beings are meant to be redeemed, glorified, and live forever in a renewed creation, not transformed into spirit creatures. The concept of humans ceasing to be human contradicts biblical anthropology, where humanity is created in God’s image and destined for bodily resurrection, not spiritual disembodiment.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

You should read these:

In Scripture, redemption is not merely about being saved from sin; it is a calling to participate in God's mission. When people are redeemed, they are set apart for God's purposes. For example:

1 Peter 2:9 says: “But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.” This verse shows that redemption comes with a mission—to proclaim God's excellencies and participate in His work.
Ephesians 2:10 adds: “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” The redeemed are called to fulfill a specific role in God's plan by doing good works, a kind of "job assignment."

The idea that only the 144,000 are "assigned to a job" as rulers or priests in heaven, while others are merely "redeemed," misunderstands the broader biblical message of shared responsibility in God's kingdom.

Both the 144,000 and the great multitude in Revelation are described as redeemed (Rev 7:14; Rev 14:4). While the 144,000 may have a specific role, this does not negate the fact that all who are redeemed share in the work of proclaiming God's kingdom.
Revelation 7:9 describes the great multitude as standing before the throne and the Lamb, participating in worship and service to God. This implies they, too, have a role or function in God’s kingdom, even if it differs from the specific priestly role attributed to the 144,000.

The idea of a distinction between being "redeemed" and being "assigned to a job" is too rigid for the biblical narrative. In the Bible, all who are redeemed are called to serve:

Matthew 28:18-20, the Great Commission, calls all disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. This is a task, a mission for all believers, not just a select group.
Romans 12:4-8 speaks of different roles and gifts within the body of Christ, but emphasizes that every believer has a role to play in building up the church.

While it is true that specific roles are mentioned for the 144,000 in Revelation, the notion that only they are "assigned a job" oversimplifies the broader biblical teaching. Redemption always carries with it a calling to serve God, and this applies to all of God's people, not just a select few. The redeemed, whether part of the 144,000 or the great multitude, are called to actively participate in God's redemptive plan for the world. Therefore, the idea of dividing the redeemed into passive recipients and active workers does not hold up to a holistic reading of Scripture.

135

Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat in

say it ain’t so!

.

in one sense it’s a no brainer because the figures just don’t add up any more.. in another (negative) sense it’s a no brainer because it’s been fundamental to jws since year dot and might undermine the whole thing?

aqwsed12345

@FreeTheMasons

The argument that the number "144,000" must be taken literally based on examples of literal numbers in the Bible overlooks several key factors that suggest this number is, in fact, symbolic in the broader context of Revelation. Here are some points to consider in refuting the claim:

1. Symbolic Nature of Revelation

The Book of Revelation is widely recognized as a highly symbolic text, filled with allegory, metaphors, and imagery. While it is true that some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, Revelation is a genre of apocalyptic literature, where numbers often have symbolic meanings. For instance:

The number 7 is used repeatedly throughout Revelation to symbolize completeness or perfection (seven seals, seven trumpets, seven churches).
The number 12 represents the people of God, as seen in the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) is likely symbolic of the completeness of God's people, encompassing both Old and New Covenant believers.

The highly symbolic nature of the surrounding text makes it more plausible that the number 144,000 is symbolic rather than literal.

2. Symbolism of the 12 Tribes and Their Inclusion

The number 144,000 is described as coming from the 12 tribes of Israel in Revelation 7:4-8. However, the list of tribes presented in this passage does not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. For example:

The tribe of Dan is omitted.
Joseph and Manasseh are included in a way that differs from traditional lists of the tribes.

This selective arrangement of tribes, combined with the symbolic use of 12, suggests that the 144,000 represents a spiritual "Israel" or the totality of God’s people, not a literal, ethnic Israelite group.

3. Use of Symbolic Numbers Elsewhere

The examples provided (such as Joseph's interpretation of Pharaoh's dreams or the number of stars in Joseph’s own dream) do involve literal numbers. However, these are specific contexts where the surrounding details suggest a literal interpretation. In contrast, Revelation's context, particularly in its apocalyptic framework, leans heavily into the symbolic use of numbers.

Even within the examples provided, the interpretation of certain symbols (like the "beasts" representing kingdoms) shows that numbers in symbolic visions can point to figurative truths rather than strict literalism.

4. The Meaning of "Firstfruits"

Revelation 14:4 refers to the 144,000 as "firstfruits." In biblical language, "firstfruits" often symbolically refer to a representative portion of a larger whole. The 144,000, as the "firstfruits," could be representative of the greater harvest of redeemed people from all nations, as described in the "great multitude" in Revelation 7:9. If the 144,000 were meant to represent only a small, literal group, it would be difficult to reconcile the concept of "firstfruits," which typically implies a larger total group.

5. The Great Crowd and the 144,000

Revelation 7:9 speaks of a "great crowd" that no one could number, from every nation, tribe, people, and language. This group is distinct from the 144,000 and is not limited in number. If one group is literal and numbered, while another is figurative and innumerable, this distinction makes more sense symbolically. Moreover, the great crowd is also depicted as sharing in the salvation of God, reinforcing the idea that salvation is not limited to a literal 144,000.

6. No Explicit Statement that the 144,000 is Literal

The argument claims that because the Bible does not explicitly say the 144,000 is symbolic, it must be literal. However, the Bible also does not say that other symbolic numbers, such as 7 or 12 in Revelation, are symbolic—they are understood as such because of their context. The lack of explicit labeling as "symbolic" is not a valid reason to interpret the number literally, especially given the broader use of symbolism throughout the book.

7. Historical and Theological Consensus

Many theologians and biblical scholars across Christian traditions understand the 144,000 to be symbolic. The number 144,000 is seen as representing the complete number of God's people, drawn from both Jews and Gentiles, throughout history. While Jehovah's Witnesses hold to a literal interpretation, the broader Christian tradition, both Catholic and Protestant, interprets this number symbolically.

Conclusion

While some numbers in the Bible are taken literally, the context of Revelation—and apocalyptic literature more broadly—suggests that the number 144,000 is symbolic. The argument that 144,000 must be literal because some numbers elsewhere in Scripture are literal fails to take into account the unique literary genre of Revelation, the symbolic meaning of numbers throughout the book, and the broader biblical context that emphasizes inclusivity in salvation. The idea of a limited, literal 144,000 ruling with Christ does not align with the overarching message of Revelation, which points to the fullness of God's people from all nations being redeemed.