Posts by Liberty

13

Dear Governing Body/Faithful &Discreet Slave

by somebody in

jw
friends

dear governing body .

i read this in an article on your "official" web site today.

it's in the index, under religion in the article called what is the purpose of life?

Liberty

I often wonder how many JWs really know anything has changed. I'm sure most JWs don't know the Society now allows organ transplants and certain blood fractions. The rules are so complex and ever changing and the notification of change so well hidden or masked as something else that the rank and file JW doesn't know what is approved or disapproved anymore. These changed teachings were so intensly believed as God's own Truth that it might be hard for old faithfuls to even "hear" the change as they go on believing stuff from 30 years ago. The idiot who put this info up on the official site might not know that the "Generation" teaching was changed.

Edited by - Liberty on 24 January 2003 9:45:48

36

Do we come here to "convince" ourselves?

by bittersweet in

jw
friends

.

ok...so the other day my husband(he is still an active witness) starts questioning me about why i come to x-jw sites.. he said the reason people come to these types of sites,is to convince themselves that they made the right decision to leave the"truth".i told him i come here to get support from others who feel they were tricked into believing something that wasn't true.he knows i feel my life has been taken away from me because i wasted so many years following their doctrines.i told him it helps me to know i am not alone in my feelings.he is still convinced that people are afraid they are wrong,and just come here to keep finding reasons to stay away from the "truth".he doesn't understand that we know what the real truth is.. i was just curious what everyone else thought about this.do you feel we are "convincing" ourselves that we made the right decision to leave?

Liberty

Hi Bittersweet,

I was out of the Watch Tower Society and comfortable with this choice for years before I'd even heard of the Internet. Anyone with an honest love of the real truth and an appreciation of cold hard facts can easily come to the logical conclusion that the whole Watch Tower ideology is seriously flawed at the very least. There is no question in my mind that, an intellegent spirit being capable of creating the entire Universe, would have done a much better job of founding an earthly organization without all the false predictions and other negative baggage carried by the Watch Tower Society.The facts speak volumes for themselves so we ex-JWs don't need to reassure ourselves that leaving all the doctrinal flip flops, cover ups, false predictions, false hopes, lies and corruption, which IS the entire history of the Watch Tower Society, was a good idea and the right thing to do.

Your husband needs to ask himself honestly why Jehovah would allow so many generations of His faithful followers to be given nothing but false hopes over and over again by His supposed one true earthly organization. I don't need "apostate" books or the Internet to tell me anything since I lived through the disappointment of several faithful old JWs who were around in the early days and were promised they would never grow old and die and yet they did. I was around for the 1975 disappointment myself and KNOW firsthand what the Watch Tower Society promised and how the leadership then blamed the rank and file for the failure when everyone knows that a regular JW doesn't have the power to predict anything without the Society's Leadership's approval. I KNOW for a fact that organ transplants were forbidden and then one day they become a conscience issue. I know Jws won't take blood transfusions yet they eat unkoshered meat full of blood everyday violating directly the scripture they use to justify their own no transfusion rule. I knew this long before I read any "apostate" material or got on a computer. Simple facts speak volumes and I was there years ago when they said that we would never make it out of the 20th century without Armageddon and yet here we are in 2003 and the 1914 generation is long dead and another flip flop made to cover this fact up. If God exists, surely He is not this stupid? Why would He allow the Watch Tower Society to be His earthly representitives since they are not only imperfect but completely 100% wrong all the time. Do we really need to reassure ourselves of this plain fact?

Edited by - Liberty on 22 January 2003 11:20:55

Edited by - Liberty on 22 January 2003 11:31:35

75

Name Something Positive About Being A Witness

by minimus in

jw
friends

can you do it?

Liberty

Everything everyone has stated is valid. We did learn much while JWs but we are still trapped into thinking things are important when they really might not be without our religious goggles on. Knowledge of the Bible in the modern age is about as important as having knowledge of the Koran, Book Of Mormon, or ancient Egyptian death spells. Bible knowlege is really only important if your culture thinks it is. Many people today who have no Bible knowledge live good lives and make fine livings because they spent their time learning valued skills in the scientific age instead of superstitious mumbo jumbo and skewed region specific history. I would trade all my Bible knowledge for a Computer Science degree. It is possible to have both but my Bible knowledge is really useless except when it comes to arguing with religious fanatics, so it would have been easier to just spend the time and effort on useful and productive knowledge for the real world. Also many of us paint a dark picture of ourselves had it not been for the Watch Tower's teachings yet most "worldly" people I know are not dying of STDs, are not drug addicts, and are not smoking so I think we credit the Society for far too much, which is understandable since we were brainwashed over and over again about how bad we'd be if it wasn't for the Watch Tower's iron hand to save us from ourselves. In short, any learning has value but Watch Tower learning tends to be over inflated by us exJWs because we are still hoping to find something positive in our years of wasted time and victimhood. We hope we recieved some benifit from our captivity but we should always temper that hope with a good dose of reality.

Edited by - Liberty on 17 January 2003 12:26:12

25

C of C Just Arrived

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

crisis of conscience has just been delivered by mail to my office.

i wouldn't dare let it be delivered to home in case my wife found out.. i am still "in", so the question is, should i read it?

and if so, are my days as a jw numbered?.

Liberty

Hi Eyeslice,

Just being awake enough to want to read it means you're already on your way out. C of C didn't make me want to leave, as I already had left, it just explained in detail what my instincts had already told me about the Watch Tower Society Cult. I did come away with a better understanding of how even some of the "smarter folks" in leadership positions could be caught up in the fantasy and sincerely believe the lies just like the average rank & file JWs (me). The difference is that they were exposed to even more hypocracy and insider info and it still took them years to figure it out so I don't feel quite as stupid since they were duped too. Ray is a good writer and you really feel the way it slowly dawned on him that things were seriously wrong inside his life long religion with a top ranking family member responsible for alot of the problems. It takes a strong will to give up all the connections, prestige, and security in order to pursue the real truth.

Edited by - Liberty on 16 January 2003 11:52:6

15

Question: ONLY ANOINTED ARE UNFORGIVABLE ?

by Liberty in

minimus got me to thinking in his thread about the unforgivable sin and judging apostates.

i hope someone with a clearer memory than mine can confirm or deny what i remember.

i have some vague memory that the society taught that only members of the "anointed class" (144,000) could commit the unforgivable sin against the the holy spirit because only they had been called by it personally and, therefore, only they could reject it consciously and willfully.

Liberty

Thanks for the replies guys.

15

Question: ONLY ANOINTED ARE UNFORGIVABLE ?

by Liberty in

minimus got me to thinking in his thread about the unforgivable sin and judging apostates.

i hope someone with a clearer memory than mine can confirm or deny what i remember.

i have some vague memory that the society taught that only members of the "anointed class" (144,000) could commit the unforgivable sin against the the holy spirit because only they had been called by it personally and, therefore, only they could reject it consciously and willfully.

Liberty

DOES ANYBODY REMEMBER THIS TEACHING?

15

Question: ONLY ANOINTED ARE UNFORGIVABLE ?

by Liberty in

minimus got me to thinking in his thread about the unforgivable sin and judging apostates.

i hope someone with a clearer memory than mine can confirm or deny what i remember.

i have some vague memory that the society taught that only members of the "anointed class" (144,000) could commit the unforgivable sin against the the holy spirit because only they had been called by it personally and, therefore, only they could reject it consciously and willfully.

Liberty

Minimus got me to thinking in his thread about the unforgivable sin and judging apostates. I hope someone with a clearer memory than mine can confirm or deny what I remember. I have some vague memory that the Society taught that only members of the "Anointed Class" (144,000) could commit the unforgivable sin against the the holy spirit because only they had been called by it personally and, therefore, only they could reject it consciously and willfully. As I recall, those of the "Great Crowd" class could be forgiven any sin since we are of a different (lower) calling and had no direct contact with the holy spirit. This was one of the "benifits" of being a member of the "Great Crowd" because even if we were misled into apostacy (or any sin) we could repent and be forgiven before the big "A" unlike members of the "Anointed" who were forever damned. A "with greater office comes greater accountability" type of classism to make the rank & file peons feel better about their lowly status. Am I right about this or have things changed?

10

The power of belief systems

by donkey in

most of us here have been jw's.

most of us believed it was the truth.

inherent in that is the belief that we would be persecuted and this would be one of the signs that we were the true religion.

Liberty

Great topic Donkey!,

As victims of a cult who now know better we have been given a unique perspective on the dangers of black and white thinking. Many of us will be very cautious about our beliefs from now on being careful not to fall into the trap of arrogant and mindless certainty. Being an ex-JW has taught me that belief and reality are two very different things. I no longer believe that thinking about something hard enough will somehow make it real. This extremist religious faith is just another variation of "magical thinking" which has misled humanity for thousands of years. Every expert, authority figure, and tradition should be questioned dailey and checked for validity.

Our instinct for self preservation and instinct for common sense should be listened to when making any decision. Blind religious fanatism or blind patriotism are huge dangers because we are also a cooperative species by nature so, as ex-JWs, we have some idea of where this misplaced devotion can lead. A mature (wise?) person learns from experience to disregard patterns of deception and apply what they have learned to other aspects of belief and action. Dying or killing for an idea or belief should always be considered nobley heroic and insane to the extreme both at the same time. This paradox should always keep us off balance so that we do not run steady and headlong into disaster.

Most of what I believed as a young person has proven itself to be wrong. This should tell me something the next time I make a harsh judgement or state an opinion. The true nature of the Universe is chaos and as such it is far too complex for black and white thinking or simple conclusions made without good evidence. The heart of wisdom is truely being aware of just how much we do NOT know. Killing or dying for something in this context takes on a healthy measure of uncertainty.

44

demons

by Stefanie in

jw
friends

i was just wondering if anyone here has had any experiences with them.

im sorry if thread has already been discussed.

when my oldest was about 5 months, (i was just studing at the time) i had put her is the crib to sleep for the night.

Liberty

Sorry I upset you Stephanie,

We have a baby due in June and the thought of a Watch Tower style demon messing with it is where I drew my inspiration from in the comments that offended you. If I allowed WT superstitions to control my life again I too would have my stomach turned, but because I have studied hard to become a skeptic using reason, logic, and the scientific method these irrational fears have dissapated. I replied to your thread because I wanted you to have the same peace of mind that I have come to know in a world without superstition.

By looking to the natural world for our answers instead of religion, science has solved many problems which once left humans helpless and paralized with fear. Sickness was once considered to be caused by evil spirits and useless religious rituals were used to try and help people but they died anyway because the cause was not demons or spirits but microbes. If science had never looked to the natural world for solutions and insisted on believing in the supernatural we would still suffer the high death rates found just a few hundred years ago. Your life can be better if you allow science to help you with your problems instead of relgion and spirit mediums. The natural explainations you were offered are a better way to confront and solve the strange events which frightened you. A Dr. or social worker may be able to provide some help if your problem was caused by blackouts or sleepwalking. A nieghbor may have the same TV remote as yours which could be causing your TV to go off and on or an electrical problem which can be fixed may be to blame. In any case, I offered my opinion so that you could seek real solutions to your problems rather than useless imaginary solutions offered by religion and spiritists.

You are free to believe what you want but we offered you opinions so you can make an informed choice. The Watch Tower doesn't give its followers a wide variety of opinions to choose from, it's their way or the highway. Here you are free to seek any answers you wish. In closing I'd just like to say that the real world is horrible enough and I worry about my baby so not having to face an unseen world of supernatural (imaginary?) dangers too makes my life just a little better because I can concentrate my energies on what can be seen, studied, and solved.

44

demons

by Stefanie in

jw
friends

i was just wondering if anyone here has had any experiences with them.

im sorry if thread has already been discussed.

when my oldest was about 5 months, (i was just studing at the time) i had put her is the crib to sleep for the night.

Liberty

Hi Stephanie,

The topic of demons is always a difficult one because there are those of us who just flat out don't believe in them while others are just as convinced that they are real. After years of study and experiance I can say that I am one who doesn't believe that such beings are possible so I always look for a natural explaination whereas believers will always look to the supernatural. Ask yourself logically, if demons are evil and have the strength to move a baby around wouldn't it be easier and more effective for them to just stop a baby's heart from beating or to smother them while taunting you outloud rather than just playing tricks by quietly moving the baby around? If demons were real wouldn't they want you to know for sure it was them and wouldn't they try to use their powers to do greater harm than just turning off a TV or moving things around? The Watch Tower version of a demon is the most unbelievable since they are supposed to be fallen angels, spirit beings second only to God, and yet they use their great intellegence and powers to do stupid useless things like live in old furniture, books, and shawls waiting for hapless JWs to stumble across them at yard sales so they can frighten the children or move things around the house. If the Devil and his minions are doing battle with God for control of the Universe, I think playing silly tricks in mostly private homes of just a very few people would be a huge waste of time accomplishing nothing but encouraging believers to run to their God for help. It doesn't make any sense so other explainations, which you've already been offered, are just more likely. Let science and reason be your guides instead of silly superstitions from a discredited cult like the Watch Tower Society.

Good luck in your search for truth

Edited by - Liberty on 9 January 2003 17:48:6