KN: thx for the explanation re: your nic
Retro: thx for the input. Are you still active? If so, BEEEE CAREFUL!
aristeas
JoinedPosts by aristeas
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Does anyone know if they are still teaching the GT to newbies?
by aristeas init has been quite an eye-opening last two weeks or so since i discovered & joined this site.
i'm learning a lot and there's no doubt much still to learn.
i must continue to thank so many posters for contributing information not available elsewhere on a wide variety of topics.
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Does anyone know if they are still teaching the GT to newbies?
by aristeas init has been quite an eye-opening last two weeks or so since i discovered & joined this site.
i'm learning a lot and there's no doubt much still to learn.
i must continue to thank so many posters for contributing information not available elsewhere on a wide variety of topics.
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aristeas
Thanks, Knowsnothing—so is your nic ironic or what? You sure knew your stuff here!
I found the book on-line at the official O site:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/appendix_00.htm
And you were right, it's both in chapter 8 and the appendix. The book came out in 2005, so the directive to write it was prob. given to the writing dept. in 2004, just before they decided to downplay 607/1914. I guess we'll have to see what develops re: these dates next when they decide to replace this book with another for the newbies.
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aristeas
OK, Luo bou to, you can't just leave us hanging like that! If 15 have passed, surley the trial must have finished. Was the SOB convicted or not?
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Does anyone know if they are still teaching the GT to newbies?
by aristeas init has been quite an eye-opening last two weeks or so since i discovered & joined this site.
i'm learning a lot and there's no doubt much still to learn.
i must continue to thank so many posters for contributing information not available elsewhere on a wide variety of topics.
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aristeas
It has been quite an eye-opening last two weeks or so since I discovered & joined this site. I'm learning a lot and there's no doubt much still to learn. I must continue to thank so many posters for contributing information not available elsewhere on a wide variety of topics. I have one thing to share and a related question that has come up.
From the bit of research I've been able to do so far on the new songbook, one interesting thing has emerged. Since the songbook is basically a return to the golden oldies of the pink one (+ about 40 new songs I have yet to see), notable is the fact that one such oldie, #14 in the '86 book, 'Be Glad, You Nations', in spite of it being a very popular song that goes way back, is not in the new book. Surely the reason must be that the third line of the first verse was 'The seven Gentile Times have ended; Their kings have had their day'. It seems that the O is playing down anything having to do with 607-1914. Some posters here say that Rolf Feruli's pitiful apologies for the WTS's 607 date are NOT appreciated by the GB b/c it brings up the very thing they want to lie dormant.
All this brings up an interesting question: does anyone know what the current study book is that's being used for 'Bible' studies with interested people who are found in field service? Further does anyone know if this book, whatever it is, contains this 'Gentile times' teaching, i.e., 607 to 1914 and all that? If they are still using a newbie book that contains this info, then how serious can they be about letting this idea lie low? -
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aristeas
Now THIS thread, like RagingBull said, is very funny. I really need this kind of humor from time to time. Thanks much for the share!
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Start and end of the "Seventy Years" according to the WTS
by Doug Mason inthe wts says that the seventy years started when a group of judeans, including jeremiah, crossed the border into egypt.
this, they say, was required since the land had to be absolutely and totally depopulated, without a human or a beast on the land.. one would thus expect that the wts would end the seventy years when the first captives crossed the border into the province of yehud.
that would mean that once again there were people on the land.. but no, the wts does not do that.
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aristeas
Doug,
Thx for explaining where you're coming from. It's gratifying to see that you're not all caught up in that prophecy stuff.
Are you ex-JW or just s.o. interested from a completely outside (the WTS) view?
As for trying 'to break the nexus between the WTS and the JW's brain', well, I doubt that can ever be done except for a few individual cases.
If you have such interest in the NT writings, then surely you have noticed how writers like Paul regularly wrench individual OT passages out of their original context and apply them in what many might call a 'slap-dab' manner to his needs when writing to his audiences. Isn't that what occurs when you state 'the WTS organisation continually misquotes and misrepresents the authorities it supposedly quotes'? The mentality of JWs today is quite similar, to me anyway, to that of the unsophisticated fishermen of Galilee. They, as well as other Adventists, are sincere but generally uneducated people for whom eschatology has become the primary focus (per J. G. Melton's Dictionary of Religious Bodies).
One final question: if you take the view (not personally but for the sake of illustraiton) that God inspired all this OT prophecy re: messiah's coming as early Christianity saw it, that is, that there are two comings, first as a humble guy (coming on an ass) who would be killed (but this was mostly hidden and cryptically written in obtuse ways in the OT), and then second as a warrior king with universal power to destroy all the nations and establish his own world rule from Jerusalem (and this coming is far more clearly perceptible from OT prophecies), and that God never clearly specified these two comings, THEN WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THIS HEBREW GOD?—or if you want to take a purely humanistic perspective, what does it say about those early Jewish and later gentile Christians who believed this scenario?
If you wish to continue this interlocution, I then have some further questions.
Cheers. -
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Watchtower Independent Analysis of its History?
by Marvin Shilmer inin the june 2011 issue of journal of religious history author zoe knox, a historian, opined that watchtower was softening its historical position against researchers seeking to write an independent history of the organization.
boy-oh-boy is knox wrong on this point.
my presentation of information examines this conclusion by zoe knox in view of the position held by watchtower more than 80 years ago compared with a much more recent position statement by watchtower.
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aristeas
Marvin,
Thanks very much for both your post and your website addy. I'm new here and am still learning much. I have a question from the post on your website:
When you quote those words re: the O not wanting the bros. to express s.t. out of harmony with the official line, where is that from, the 2002 Jan KM or the 2001 April letter to the BOE referred to there?
Cheers.
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Start and end of the "Seventy Years" according to the WTS
by Doug Mason inthe wts says that the seventy years started when a group of judeans, including jeremiah, crossed the border into egypt.
this, they say, was required since the land had to be absolutely and totally depopulated, without a human or a beast on the land.. one would thus expect that the wts would end the seventy years when the first captives crossed the border into the province of yehud.
that would mean that once again there were people on the land.. but no, the wts does not do that.
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aristeas
Doug,
Forget all the chronology/prophecy stuff! It's a big waste of time. There is much more interesting material to study and learn. BB is right about the O just trying to cling to the old WTS tradition as long as possible. But they do seem to be preparing for a change: the 1914 statement inside the WT mag cover is now gone. In the new songbook, in general, it's a return to golden oldies (plus some 40 new compositions) but conspicuous by its absence is the old number 14, 'Be Glad, You Nations' undoubtedly b/c it used to state 'The 7 Gentile Times have ended, the kings have had their day...' There is clearly a deemphasis on specific prophecies. They're hoping the publishers will forget about it—maybe you should too!
If you do believe God/Jehovah is behind the Bible consider this: the real reason for all the enticing prophecies like 'Happy is he who comes ot the end of the 1,335 days' (Dan 12) is just to keep people wondering, keep them spiritually awake. Once you realize this, you can move on to the important stuff. Study real history, learn the basics of Greek, study Paul's letters as whole documents, or something, anything OTHER THAN PROPHECY! Think about it: Did the Essenes/Qumran community have prophecy right? Did the offbeat groups during the Reformation? Did Wiliam Miller? Russell? JFR? Freddie Franz? This nutjob Richard King/e-watchman? This Harold Camping guy? Get the message? Give it up—it's not figure-out-able, by design!
My two cents, for what they're worth...
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I had my first encounter with JW's at my door! I was called an apostate!
by Desert Rat inso, i am getting ready to move across the state.
we bought a home there, and have taken a couple of loads over, with the main move being this next week.
i went over this last week cause i wanted to paint the kitchen and dining room before we moved in (a lot easier to do without grandkids and dogs under foot).. anyway... here i am painting away when there is a knock on the door.
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aristeas
DR, wow, quite an expereince. I always try to be nice to them and get them to think too, but preferably NOT at my home—lest they come back! I'm not DFed but just faded, so I feel no moral obligation to tell them I'm ex- or inactive or whatever.
I few years ago I was hitchiking in the backcountry (Rocky Mtns.) where a dirt road became a 4-wheel-drive one. My truck is only 2-wheel drive, so a few miles/kilos into the backcountry I parked it and began looking for a ride further in. A 4WD SUV with a couple stopped to pick me up. I got in the back seat and found a NWT, so I asked if they were Wtinesses. They said yes, so I after some small talk I queried them why no Witness males sport beards. The bro. gave the "clean-cut look" reply. I asked whether that did not imply that men with beards were unclean. I have a full beard, so I knew the bro. would not want to insult me. The point was it really got them both to think about the standard lines they're so trained to give. Shouldn't our goal be to help them to think for themsleves, not just anger or insult them back?
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aristeas
Best to you, size. I was in a big one in Calif. years back—very scary, including the aftershocks. That liquification is terrible!
Cheers, mate!