Doug,
Thx for explaining where you're coming from. It's gratifying to see that you're not all caught up in that prophecy stuff.
Are you ex-JW or just s.o. interested from a completely outside (the WTS) view?
As for trying 'to break the nexus between the WTS and the JW's brain', well, I doubt that can ever be done except for a few individual cases.
If you have such interest in the NT writings, then surely you have noticed how writers like Paul regularly wrench individual OT passages out of their original context and apply them in what many might call a 'slap-dab' manner to his needs when writing to his audiences. Isn't that what occurs when you state 'the WTS organisation continually misquotes and misrepresents the authorities it supposedly quotes'? The mentality of JWs today is quite similar, to me anyway, to that of the unsophisticated fishermen of Galilee. They, as well as other Adventists, are sincere but generally uneducated people for whom eschatology has become the primary focus (per J. G. Melton's Dictionary of Religious Bodies).
One final question: if you take the view (not personally but for the sake of illustraiton) that God inspired all this OT prophecy re: messiah's coming as early Christianity saw it, that is, that there are two comings, first as a humble guy (coming on an ass) who would be killed (but this was mostly hidden and cryptically written in obtuse ways in the OT), and then second as a warrior king with universal power to destroy all the nations and establish his own world rule from Jerusalem (and this coming is far more clearly perceptible from OT prophecies), and that God never clearly specified these two comings, THEN WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT THIS HEBREW GOD?—or if you want to take a purely humanistic perspective, what does it say about those early Jewish and later gentile Christians who believed this scenario?
If you wish to continue this interlocution, I then have some further questions.
Cheers.
aristeas
JoinedPosts by aristeas
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13
Start and end of the "Seventy Years" according to the WTS
by Doug Mason inthe wts says that the seventy years started when a group of judeans, including jeremiah, crossed the border into egypt.
this, they say, was required since the land had to be absolutely and totally depopulated, without a human or a beast on the land.. one would thus expect that the wts would end the seventy years when the first captives crossed the border into the province of yehud.
that would mean that once again there were people on the land.. but no, the wts does not do that.
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aristeas
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Watchtower Independent Analysis of its History?
by Marvin Shilmer inin the june 2011 issue of journal of religious history author zoe knox, a historian, opined that watchtower was softening its historical position against researchers seeking to write an independent history of the organization.
boy-oh-boy is knox wrong on this point.
my presentation of information examines this conclusion by zoe knox in view of the position held by watchtower more than 80 years ago compared with a much more recent position statement by watchtower.
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aristeas
Marvin,
Thanks very much for both your post and your website addy. I'm new here and am still learning much. I have a question from the post on your website:
When you quote those words re: the O not wanting the bros. to express s.t. out of harmony with the official line, where is that from, the 2002 Jan KM or the 2001 April letter to the BOE referred to there?
Cheers.
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Start and end of the "Seventy Years" according to the WTS
by Doug Mason inthe wts says that the seventy years started when a group of judeans, including jeremiah, crossed the border into egypt.
this, they say, was required since the land had to be absolutely and totally depopulated, without a human or a beast on the land.. one would thus expect that the wts would end the seventy years when the first captives crossed the border into the province of yehud.
that would mean that once again there were people on the land.. but no, the wts does not do that.
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aristeas
Doug,
Forget all the chronology/prophecy stuff! It's a big waste of time. There is much more interesting material to study and learn. BB is right about the O just trying to cling to the old WTS tradition as long as possible. But they do seem to be preparing for a change: the 1914 statement inside the WT mag cover is now gone. In the new songbook, in general, it's a return to golden oldies (plus some 40 new compositions) but conspicuous by its absence is the old number 14, 'Be Glad, You Nations' undoubtedly b/c it used to state 'The 7 Gentile Times have ended, the kings have had their day...' There is clearly a deemphasis on specific prophecies. They're hoping the publishers will forget about it—maybe you should too!
If you do believe God/Jehovah is behind the Bible consider this: the real reason for all the enticing prophecies like 'Happy is he who comes ot the end of the 1,335 days' (Dan 12) is just to keep people wondering, keep them spiritually awake. Once you realize this, you can move on to the important stuff. Study real history, learn the basics of Greek, study Paul's letters as whole documents, or something, anything OTHER THAN PROPHECY! Think about it: Did the Essenes/Qumran community have prophecy right? Did the offbeat groups during the Reformation? Did Wiliam Miller? Russell? JFR? Freddie Franz? This nutjob Richard King/e-watchman? This Harold Camping guy? Get the message? Give it up—it's not figure-out-able, by design!
My two cents, for what they're worth...
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I had my first encounter with JW's at my door! I was called an apostate!
by Desert Rat inso, i am getting ready to move across the state.
we bought a home there, and have taken a couple of loads over, with the main move being this next week.
i went over this last week cause i wanted to paint the kitchen and dining room before we moved in (a lot easier to do without grandkids and dogs under foot).. anyway... here i am painting away when there is a knock on the door.
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aristeas
DR, wow, quite an expereince. I always try to be nice to them and get them to think too, but preferably NOT at my home—lest they come back! I'm not DFed but just faded, so I feel no moral obligation to tell them I'm ex- or inactive or whatever.
I few years ago I was hitchiking in the backcountry (Rocky Mtns.) where a dirt road became a 4-wheel-drive one. My truck is only 2-wheel drive, so a few miles/kilos into the backcountry I parked it and began looking for a ride further in. A 4WD SUV with a couple stopped to pick me up. I got in the back seat and found a NWT, so I asked if they were Wtinesses. They said yes, so I after some small talk I queried them why no Witness males sport beards. The bro. gave the "clean-cut look" reply. I asked whether that did not imply that men with beards were unclean. I have a full beard, so I knew the bro. would not want to insult me. The point was it really got them both to think about the standard lines they're so trained to give. Shouldn't our goal be to help them to think for themsleves, not just anger or insult them back?
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aristeas
Best to you, size. I was in a big one in Calif. years back—very scary, including the aftershocks. That liquification is terrible!
Cheers, mate!
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Question for ex-Bethelites or others in the know: GB members & Bible studies
by sir82 inat a recent circuit event, one of the carefully scripted interviews was with a young lady who had recently moved from nyc.
she has been baptized as a jw for about one year.. she made a point, and the interviewer re-emphasized, that her bible study had been conducted by geoffrey jackson (gb member) and later by mark noumair (gilead instructor).. it seems the primary reason for the interview was name-dropping, with perhaps the idea that even "prominent bethelites" conduct bible studies "just like we are supposed to".
the young lady rambled on about being "grateful for their patience" or some such.
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aristeas
Just an experience and observation. When I was new and was pioneering in one cong. where the territory was extremely productive, I sometimes had so many newbies studying with me that I had to sit between 2 studying familes at KH meetings and get other friends to take some of my other students duirng meetings. The elders were upset and the one really in control suggested I turn over some of my students to them. Since they rarely went door-to-door, I told him to find his own students by going out in service like I did! He sure didn't like that, but maybe there was some custom of turning over such students that I was unaware of. Perhaps such was at work here this Behtel case, tho as I became more 'organizaitonal' and climbed the congo ladder, I think I would have heard of it . . .
For what it's worth . . .
Also, perhaps they are eager to distance themselves from the practices of JFR who never went out in the service/ministry.
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Does anyone know about the 2010 songbook?
by aristeas ini only recently found out that there was a new songbook 'released' last year.
i came in under the old pink flexi-cover one.
then in 1984 that oversized 225 song brown one came out.
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aristeas
John
YES, please. I'd love to have a pdf of it.
Thx very much!
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Harold Camping suffers a stroke
by moshe incould this be a message from god?
a california broadcaster who wrongly forecast the return of jesus last month is now hospitalized after suffering a stroke.. harold camping, 89, of oakland, calif.-based family radio was reportedly taken by ambulance thursday night from his home in alameda, calif.. "he had a stroke, it was on his right side," a neighbor of camping's told the oakland tribune, noting that she and her husband helped and comforted camping's wife, shirley, as the event took place.. "his speech appears to be a little bit slurred but otherwise he's ok," the neighbor said, after her husband spoke with shirley yesterday.
"(shirley) said he was doing good ... and the only thing that's affected is his speech.".
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aristeas
Uhh, maybe the fact that he's 89 might have something to do with it?????
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aristeas
Something to think about: the big O uses a passage in Deut. (?) that says an Israelite could sell unbled meat to a Gentile to justify a witness MD giving a blood transfusion to a non-JW. It mght have interesting implications for this question. I'll have to look up that passage later.
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aristeas
I knew one bro. who served some years in a fed. prison for non-military service during Viet Nam. He served his time, got out, had kids, served as an elder, and then abandoned his wife and family for some young woman. He was DF'd right away and I don't believe he ever came back. I don't know if the state ever got him for child support either.