Posts by Oroborus21

27

Gave 586/587 evidence to elder today

by SeymourButts in

jw
friends

i decided to take the big gamble today and stopped to visit an elder relative of mine.

the gamble wasn't the visit, but what i did while there.

i am many years da'd, but still have a fairly good relationship with most of my family.

Oroborus21

Greetings!

I know it isn't necessary for the majority of readers/visitors/participants on this site but for those that may be lurking this thread, I thought that I would just point out regarding the excerpted Society's explanation above.

The 70 years of servitude/desolation referred to in Chronicles and Jeremiah is NOT INCONSISTENT with an actual destruction date of 596/7 BCE of Jerusalem.

If one reads both scriptures cited in the article in context then one easily sees that in Chronicles it is plainly referring to the first deportation of captives from Jerusalem to Babylon and in Jeremiah it is referring to the Babylonian warring and subjugation of all of the lands around Judea. Both of these events occurred in the early reign of Nebuchadrezzar/Nebuchanezzar between 607-604 BC in his campaign against this area. The first deportation of the conquered included the notables of the city of Jerusalem including Daniel and the king Jehoiakim. Nebuchadrezzar set up Zedikiah as a puppet King. Eleven (11) years later Zedekiah rebelled and so about 593 Babylon renewed its subjugation of Judea ultimately resulting in the beseiging of Jerusalem and razing of most of the city in 587/6.

The point is that when Chronicles or Jeremiah or Daniel refer to the 70 years prophecy/references ("at Babylon') these are correct BUT the Society wants the membership to believe that this means 70 years since the DESTRUCTION of the city of Jerusalem but what the scriptures actually refer to is the beginning of the bondage or subjugation to Babylonian/Chaldean rule.

-Eduardo

25

How can you just let go?

by squeaky in

my boyfriend (on/off 5yrs) has been in and out of this religion since we met 10yrs ago.

right now, he is back on.

it's hard for me to cope with his switching back and forth.

Oroborus21

love:

Obviously, I wasn't referring to the extreme or exceptional cases in my posts. As I mentioned earlier we have to separate cases of actual abuse and wrongdoing from what occurs "normally." Your sister was the victim of actual abuse that had nothng to do with the practice of the JW religion, although it is human nature, just as all Catholism should not be blamed for the wrongful actions of a few priests, likewise all of the JW religion should not be blamed for the wrongful actions of a few members.

I would also point out that I am not talking to responses to specific medical emergencies that could be helped with a blood transfusion. Although I respect the rights of parents to make medical decisions on behalf of their children, however misguided they may be, I personally do not support our stance against blood. In these situations, and only in these situations could one claim that the "JW upbringing" was dangerous (although I wouldn't classify it as "abusive" but that is just an argument in nonmenclature). But again, this is not what I was discussing, I was discussing the general JW upbringing which is NOT abusive and objectively could not be classified so.

ONe may vehemently disagree with the theology but that doesn't change the facts. As humans, we do tend to personalize things and to make the logical fallacy of drawing a generalization from an individual circumstance but that too is a mistake. The individual case, although sometimes tragic and horrifying, is not a good basis for generalized statements. Even a series of simiilar incidents would be contrary to the evidence that there have been many generations and today are many milllions of happy and healthy Jehovah's Witnesses and would only validate the exception not the rule.

-Eduardo

30

Question-- Should I inform the Sheriff??

by Junction-Guy in

jw
friends

for those of you who dont already know by now, the sheriff's deputy who told us to stop picketing last thursday works for the very same department that i do.

she works patrol, and i work corrections.

i remember when she used to work in the jail a few years ago, but im not sure if she recognized me.

Oroborus21

Hi There:

You don't need to contact the ACLU or an attorney (yet). You can try but the ACLU won't give you the time of day until AFTER your civil liberties have been deprived and an Attorney is someone that is in the business of selling advice so you might have to pay unless you find a nice one. (no jokes please)

First, see if you can check the local ordinances yourself. Maybe your county librarian can help you out. Arm yourself with the knowledge of which local ordinances apply or don't apply and set up an appointment with the Sheriff if you can. (Obviously find out if there are any licensing requirements and get a license if you have to.) Meet with the Sheriff and kindly inform him of your plans and inquire how you may exercise your rights while not running afoul of the law. After you have agreed with him or he has seen that he cannot prevent you from picketing or exercising your right to free speech (which he CAN"T ANYMORE THAN HE CAN PREVENT JWS FROM GOING ON THE SAME SIDEWALK THAT YOU WANT TO STAND ON TO PICKET AND DISTRIBUTING LITERATURE); then ask him if he would like you to notify his office (as a courtesy only of course) of the days and times or just prior to when you will picket. (By calling the dept, they can alert both the phone personnel and any patrols so that if they do get any calls they won't just react, they will be able to tell the person who calls that you have the right to picket and aren't causing any problems instead of just rolling to the scene and scaring the bejesus out of you.)

If you get resistance, make it plain that you intend to exercise your rights to free speech and will escalate things if necessary. File a complaint with the Sherriff's bosses, the County Supervisors/Board of Supervisors if necessary, and threaten legal action against the County if necessary. You will get your way. If none of this works then it is time to find a civil rights attorney and/or contact the ACLU.

PS: with regards to the picketingthe other day. It is very possible that Wal-Mart is the one that called the cops on you. Wal-Mart has strict policies against allowiing tables/picketing on or near its property. just a thought.

-Eduardo

21

Johnny Cochran is Dead

by Sweetp0985 in

.

i know this is not very important but it was just a shock to me......said he lost the battle with a long term illness he had.....people are just dying left and right....kinda scary....i don't think he was that old...... now who are the famous people gonna turn to to get them out of trouble....let's hope oj doesn't screw up again...

Oroborus21

Anybody want to have fun with some potential Epitaphs for the Reverend Johnny Cochran?

I'll start:

The Casket Fit

So He Went In It

-Eduardo

59

We picketed the Memorial, What a blast !!!

by Junction-Guy in

jw
friends

this is my first chance to post here since last thursday, so here it is.

amanda and i arrived at approximately 5:45 pm, and parked in the walmart parking lot.

amanda bought a folding chair and something to eat, as she just got off work.. we walked across the street to the kingdom hall and stood on the shoulder of the road.

Oroborus21

Hey there, going to post this here, although you may have moved on to the other thread.

actually, there is a strong possibility that Wal-Mart called the cops on you. Wal-Mart has a pretty strict policy against alowing tables and picketing on or near its property.

just thought you should know.

Eduardo

8

carnal is it in the bible?..what do it really mean?

by sad and lonely in

jw
friends

by brother-in-law who claims he's a preacher,though he preaches out of his house and the only members are his wife,kids and about 3 other people he took of the streets gave a sandwich to,then talked them into letting him baptize them ,in his large body-lenght foot tub.

tells me that jesus is the father and that the reason i don't see that dispite the fact that jesus said himself his father is greater than him,i wasn't in the carnal...if i was then i would see how deep it is.and he said god!

wants us to be at his understanding level.but i thought somewhere i read or heard that we could never be at gods level.and also i read out of a dictionary about the word canal.ant it didn't seen spritual to me.it wasn't in my bible dictionary(the wordly one)as my sista said it was in the bible dict.,can anyone explain that to me...please!!!

Oroborus21

Hi, I just thought I would chip in.

Your wacko relative is just using a word which he thinks is making him "high-falutin" but which is actually just stupid and wrong to use in this way.

As a poster above excerpted when some translations use "carnal" they of course mean "fleshly" (as opposed to "spiritually") that is what CARNAL means with the latin root of carne for flesh or meat.

In the bible it is NOT a good thing to be CARNAL (or not spiritual but rather fleshly) which is why your relative is an idiot for turning the meaning around 180 degrees to make it sound like a good thing.

Probably, he is thinking that by referring to being "in the Carnal" he really means the same thing as one says being in "the body of Christ" that is to say a part of the Christian body of persons or believers.

Again instead of saying it correctly he is trying to co-opt this word and make it mean "the Body of Christ" or the Christian faith.

-Eduardo

25

How can you just let go?

by squeaky in

my boyfriend (on/off 5yrs) has been in and out of this religion since we met 10yrs ago.

right now, he is back on.

it's hard for me to cope with his switching back and forth.

Oroborus21

Euphemism:

That is certainly your opinion and you are welcome to it. I am not going to try and dissuade you from it.

I understand that this board is populated with a lot of Ex-JWs and others who are opposed to Witnesses so no doubt your opinion is popular here.

However, calling the situation of children being raised one of Jehovah's Witnesses "abusive" is not only error it detracts from REAL abusive situations of neglect, physical and sexual abuse of children or cases of true emotional and psychological abuse.

So, I am not as you say, saying that JWs are Ok because they are "less" abusive because they are not abusive in the first place - and to assert that they are (begs the question) of assuming an extremely difficult and disputed point, namely that JWs religion and upbringing is abusive itself. (Sure, individuals may have circumstances where they were abused but this has nothing to do with the JW religion itself.)

As for the JW religion, you can prove to me that teaching the concept of Armageddon where all bad people will be destroyed is any more or less harmful than Catholics and Protestants teaching that bad persons go to a place called Hell.

As one who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and who is now not only not associated but working for change within the Organization, I think that I am in a position to speak from experience. (Even, if my upbringing was more liberal than most that I know.)

"Did I miss not celebrating Birthdays or Christmas, yes/no, not really, maybe, that is hard to say, for how do I know for sure. Probably they would have been nice and on the other hand they are no big deal."

This is the kind of "psychology" that a typical ex-JW like me may have. Is not celebrating Christmas a crime, i.e. "abuse" No, of course not.

Yes, I believe, because I know myself, the conflict of one who was raised a Jehovah's Witness and who now understands that there are many things wrong with both the religion and the culture. BUT I WILL POINT OUT TO YOU THAT THIS CONFLICT EXISTS IN THOSE THAT LEAVE THE ORGANIZATION and SOME who remain in it. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, there are many many more that are living and have lived their lives doing what they believe is correct and right and living as Jehovah's Witnesses. These ones do not feel "ABUSED" because of their own choices.

Having said all of that, I say if you think someone gave you a wrong deal in the past, GET OVER IT! Move on and look to the future.

When I studied psychology in college (just one of my majors) I was never a big fan of the people or therapies that focused on the past (whether it be infancy or childhood, or last year that something happened to you) these approaches in counseling and practice never seemed to produce any good and positive results and certainly do not PROVIDE A FRAMEWORK FOR THE PERSON TO MOVE FORWARD in life.

I SEE A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE THAT COMPLAIN AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THEIR PAST. If Jesus teaches us anything in the Bible it is to look forward and to forgive the sins and those that have trespassed against us.

-Eduardo

PS:I suggest you carry this discussion to another thread so we don't hijack this one.

90

Are the Society planning a 'Pledge of Allegiance'? IT MAY BE TRUE!

by nicolaou in

i've just learned from a trusted contact at thewatchtower.org 'norris', that the society intend to put a resolution to the congregations shortly - though definately not at the 'special talk' meeting next month.. here's the scary bit.

this resolution needs to be responded to by all baptized jehovah's witnesses.

we have not been able to get hold of the wording but have been informed it is intended to provide the brotherhood with the opportunity to affirm their loyalty to jehovah and his organization.

Oroborus21

Hey there,

Just wanted to say that the SOCIETY DID AT ONE TIME BRIEFLY CONSIDER ITS OWN VERSION OF THE "PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE" back when this was an issue in the compulsory flag salute cases in school. I have it somewhere in my notes.

(I realize that is not what this thread is about.)

Just thought someone might be interested.

-Eduardo

33

Name your new "Wild Beast"

by jula71 in

ok, in the ever-changing world of ?new light?

who is going to be the new ?wild beast??

i was just watching the news and the un is in some pretty bad trouble, teenage prostitution scandal, oil for food scandal, ect.. it seems that they are slipping quickly into insignificance.

Oroborus21

I've said this before, it will be "DEMOCRACY" itself.

The Society is going to start claiming that Democracy is the real beast that arose out of Greco-Roman World Empire. Democracy carries and is intertwined with Religion (Babylon the Great).

the Society will begin pointing to the development and progression of Democracy around the world, more and more so as the End Nears. When all of the Islamic Countries and remaining Communist countries (and those one or two others) become at least NOMINALLY, that is in name, a "Democracy" the Society will say that the whole world has now suscribed to the Devil's lie that "Man has the right to Rule over Man" (i.e. Democracy), that Man's CHOOSING leadership other than God (i.e. a Democracy) will be the final straw and slap in God's face thus precipitating the End.

The Society will start "counting down" with each new "changed" country, Afganistan, Iraq, Ukraine, Lebanon, Kurgistan, Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, Cuba etc....

Thus creating again the "spiritual impetus" to spur the brothers on to work in the ministry.....

-Eduardo

PS: The UN is certainly dead. It is an impotent relic of the 20th Century whose humanitarian missions may continue but who will always take a back seat in military power to others.

16

help me!

by kerseygurl in

where do i begin?

i can't believe i'm even here...i am a 20 year old female and have been dating a jehovah's witness for 4 and 1/2 years.

until recently, we've been completely and utterly devoted to each other.

Oroborus21

Hi,

As far as the Jehovah's Witness part of this situation you only need to do one thing (since that appears to be your mind from your post) and that is to pointedly state to both boyfriend and family. "I am not interested now, or in the forseeable future in becoming a Jehovah's Witnesses, you either accept me or you don't. Further, if (Boyfriend) does want to be with me and we get married and there are children in the future, I am telling you right now that he and I will decide on how to raise them, but that I will certainly and most probably be enjoying doing certain things and allowing them to celebrate certain holidays that you may not approve of. Further, if there is ever a medical emergency, I will authorize a blood transfusion."

(that pretty much wraps up all the JW issues, the major ones at least.)

If (the guy) wants to be with you then he must accept that or take a hike.

this really isn't about Jehovah's Witnesses. Your boyfriend and his parents could be Jewish and you could be Gentle, or they could be of another race than you, etc. etc. What I am trying to say is that instead of focusing on the JW angle you need to have a serious talk with both your boyfriend and to a lesser extent with his parents along the lines above regarding the JW issues but really there are probably other things going on. Let's face it there are a lot of people out there whose In-laws do not like who their child is married to and don't always have the best relationship.

IF IT IS IMPORTANT THAT YOU HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR IN-LAWS THEN THAT SHOULD BE A PREREQUISITE OF WHO YOU ARE GOING TO DATE in the first place. But of course, in my opinion, a good relationship with the in-laws is secondary to a good relatiosnhip with one's spouse. If the guy loves you and is willing to compromise and work together with you that should be the biggest factor in deciding whether this relationship is worth it or not.

-Eduardo