howdy and welcome...
you pose all good and interesting questions..my only suggestion is that you pose them one at a time if you want any "discussion" to follow....
-Eduardo
Oroborus21
JoinedPosts by Oroborus21
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Questions...
by Aequitus inwhat is the justice in condemning humanity for the apparent sin of eve, transferring the crime of one to another, or the entirety?
where is the justice in exterminating unbelievers (most of whom may simply be unaware of 'the truth')?
why are some born with disease, deformity, etc, and not others?
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144,000
by davidsf ini'm sure this has been discussed before but the search feature isn't working so i'm going to ask anyway.... is it true jws are taught that once the 144,000 are sealed armageddon will come?
how many have partaken of the wine and bread during the memorial over the years, i.e.
how many are there currently of the "little flock"?.
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Oroborus21
your understanding is not what JWs (traditionally) have believed. (Though it may have been somewhat like what Russell taught and the BStdnts believed.)
The sealing or completing of the 144,000 (heavenly class) IN ITSELF does not coincide to the onset of the Great Tribulation ending in Armageddon.
However, the present teaching is that the remnant of this class will have some if not many members alive during the GT and that for their sake the days of tribulation will be cut short thus the end of Armageddon. At which point those still left on earth will not experience death but be changed in a twinkling of an eye and receive their heavenly station.
Because the current teaching (perhaps already being disfavoured) is that "for the most part" this class was "fulfilled" (sealed) in 1935, as evidenced by the refocusing on the ingathering of the earthly (great crowd) class, we have a ticking biological clock situation that is ready to go off. It is only a matter of years before the vast majority of the (8000+) members reach a critical mass in death rate (versus the few "replacements") and die off in such significant numbers that something will have to give in all of these teachings.
I think when everything is said and done, the Society will have to face the absurdity of considering one half of the same passage the 144,000 number as literal while insisting that the other half (the naming of the 12 tribes of Israel) is symbolic. The reasonable solution is to consider the entire passage symbolic and thus the heavenly class is a perfect or complete number but not limited to merely 144,000.
And finallly, yes, your hunch is correct. As far as the partaking goes, throughout the years from the beginning of Russell's period there appears to have been many more than 144,000 who partook and who hoped for the higher heavenly calling. (But note that early on it was believed/taught that there was a lesser heavenly class, which later became the earthly class.)
-Eduardo
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JW restrictions on sex, lead to over hype that made sex disappointing.
by free2beme ini remember being a teenager and my hormones were on overdrive.
the young witnesses i knew, male and female, were all feeling the same thing.
we would bring up sex, in one form or another, all the time.
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Oroborus21
Free,
the whole approach to dating, sex and marriage among Jehovah's Witnesses is a pretty unrealistic one and many times a disastrous one so I fully agree with you on much of what you say. I only wanted to mention that I think that the problem of disappointment due to building up high expectations is not a problem localized among JWs, it is a common problem in our society.
Our society is permeated with love and sex messages and themes. It is a facet of every single media and the messages start very early. One might be justified in saying that our whole society overemphases sex, or pehaps, does a poor job of emphasizing and delineating the different aspects of sex - Sex as intimacy, sex as pleasure, sex as control, etc. and helping us to understand when we should expect these and how we can facilitate these.
The result is that for many people, whether JW or not, their first or even their first few sexual relationships are disappointng, unfulfilling and maybe unhealthy.
True, due to the JW's culture, I think I would agree that it would probably be the case, if studied, that a higher percentage of JWs are disastisfied than the general population. And I would point out that what should be included in the problem are other non-sexual cultural aspects such as the atmosphere of negativity and the constant messages of failure and badgering. It is hard to expect a couple to go home after a Thursday night meeting, where most of what they heard is that they "need to do more in service" (with its implicit negative message that they are not doing enough) and feel good about themselves and their partner. As everyone knows, no good sex can happen if the persons don't first feel confident and somewhat happy with their own life and how it is going and with their attitudes towards their partner.
The other thing that I will mention, however, is that when it comes to sex as intimacy (and not just for pure pleasure); few couples who aren't married or at least completely committed to each other really experience sex in its ultimate form. I submit that it is only when a person is absolutely certain that they are going to spend the rest of their lives with this person, can they really experience sex in its highest intimate form. Even many married persons, due to problems or uncertainties about the marriage, are not able to enjoy sex at this level. Much less can single persons or persons who are not committed to each other experience the true nature of this kind of sex. So there is something to be said for sex within a committed relationship -even more than that - between people who KNOW they are going to be together till death.
-Eduardo
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time to introduce myself
by Sam87 inok, ive been posting here for quite a few days and i realised that i havnt actually introduced myself properly.
at the moment i am slowly gathering as much information about what the org has done wrong and i will be putting it into an easy to read (easy enough for jws to read i should say.
later on i would like to go to an assembly and put my new 'tracts' on the seats and under peoples window washers, anywhere where they can be seen, because i view this as my new form of witnessing, and let me tell you its going to be alot more fullfilling than anything ive ever done in the jehovahs witnesses!.
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Oroborus21
welcome Sam,
love the youthful optimism...
you might save yourself a little time and check out whatis already out there for your use...
-ed
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Did demons ever really rape some sisters?
by hambeak ini had a conversation last night with someone and we were reminescing about the late 60's and early 70's about how a couple of the sisters were telling at the time that they were being molested and sometimes raped by demons.
in our cong they were told to open the bible to a certain scripture and leave the bible open to it at all times and leave a light on.
anyone else remember some of this paranoia?
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Oroborus21
these stories of women getting raped by demons are Urban Legend.
As Abaddon suggests stories such as these are reflective of archetypal figures such as Night Mares (originally and literally a demon (sometimes an old woman) who comes in the night) and sits on the sleeping person's chest causing suffocation and incubi/succubi. And of course popular culture, Rosemary's Baby, etc. has fed the idea.
Most of these situations are the result of sleep-paralysis.
I have had a few occasions of this myself. ONe instance in particular was very strong and at the time I did think it was a demon sitting on my chest. I wanted to utter "Jehovah" but i couldn't so i first started thinking it and thinking it and finally I could whisper it. by the time I couldsay it out loud the feeling had passed.
Of course later on I learned about sleep-paralysis and realized that it wasnot a demon after all but only common situation.
-Eduardo
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JW Reform, It will NEVER happen...
by AuldSoul ini have read several posts by posters who fervently hope jws will become a mainstream religion, or will become "the truth," or will stop teaching this doctrine, or tweak that one, and "oh, if they would only [fill in the blank].".
such dreaming will, in the end, come to naught.
there are practical reasons why.. (1) the rank and file have no authority over the governing body.. (2) the rank and file do not hold sway over any of the corporate interests.. (3) the vast majority of memorial partakers are not credible in the eyes of the governing body, nor do they have any authority over anything.. (4) the organization shows a willingness to publicly claim beliefs to which jehovah's witnesses do not actually subscribe in order to improve public image (see lisa's interview with j.r. brown), while retaining the same hard-line beliefs in reality.. (5) the governing body is unwilling to relinquish control over the organization, to share authority with underlings (e.g.
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Oroborus21
Greetings,
You might know my thoughts on the matter but since you asked for those of us who believe in reform to provide reasons, I shall state my case for posterity's sake.
Generally, I prefer to use the term Revolution which necessarily includes reform but which I believe better reflects the strength of the internal pressures (democratic forces) and ultimately represents the end paradigm - namely a return to the beginning.
In sum: I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are on the precipice of a unique point in their history. Due to the confluence of five motivating factors, and as a result of both internal and external pressures, Jehovah's Witnesses will soon (relatively speaking) undergo a major paradigm shift. This is a Revolution in every sense.
Just as the Bible Students became Jehovah's Witnesses during the early 20th Century, it is now time, during the early part of the 21st Century, for Jehovah's Witnesses to return again to something akin to their International Bible Students beginnings. (Albeit without the more unsavory aspects of Russellism which burdens current Bible Students and the JW cousins.)
Before elaborating on the reasons for this belief, let me take a moment to address the seven "practical obstacles" that you raised:
Such dreaming will, in the end, come to naught. There are practical reasons why.
(1) The rank and file have no authority over the Governing Body.
This is absolutely true.
But the objection fails to appreciate that reform, much less a Revolution, necessarily means a change of the status quo. It is not necessary to have authority over the Governing Body to induce reforms if that body itself becomes powerless.
In other words, the entire objection rests upon the present adherence to the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine which props up the Governing Body as an authority.
However, the facts are that the Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine will inevitably be discarded or in the least extremely revised, either of which produce the outcome of it evaporating as a source of authority upon the congregations and the faithful. The principal reason why the FDS doctrine is doomed is due to several factors itself which are: a) the belief/teaching/understanding that some of the anointed (FDS class) will be alive at the onset of the Great Tribulation through to Armageddon and that only (as the scripture says) for their own sake will the days of trouble "be cut short;" b) the belief/teaching/understanding that the FDS class (anointed) were sealed as of 1935; and c) time, old age and death.
These three factors comprise the Last Biological Clock teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses and it is ticking down to its last few seconds. In the not too distant future, the 8000+ anointed will begin to die at rates in excess of any so-called "replacements" to the group and the critical mass will be reached. The result will be in one of two choices for the Society: Choice A: begin seriously revising the FDS doctrine. Choice B: Discard the FDS doctrine.
Choice A: Would probably include both an abandoment of the 1935 marker and the admission/revision that Revelation's 144,000 is NOT a literal number but represents symbolically "fullfillment" or "perfection of order." However, the likely consequence of that action would be for many more of Jehovah's Witnesses to express a Heavenly Hope placing them in the anointed class. This much larger group of anointed are going to demand more authority and recognize the falsity of the GB/FDS doctrine.
Therefore, either outcome of the Last Biological Clock's critical mass alarm will result in the death knell of the FDS doctrine. With the end of the FDS doctrine, the authority of the GB becomes non-existent.
(2) The rank and file do not hold sway over any of the corporate interests.
True again. But this is not actually an obstacle to real reform. The future of Jehovah's Witnesses is to become locally controlled, self-governing ecclesias (congregations) of International Bible Students. They will own or rent only their local Kingdom Halls. There is no need for them to control the WTBTS corporate interests.
The future of the WTBTS is to remove the religious facade and publicly reveal its true nature that developed in the 20th Century which is that it is a Publishing Corporation.
The future and role of the WTBTS is to produce and sell literature and other media to Jehovah's Witnesses and the public, to train foreign missionaries, to provide special speakers as requested by the local congregations, and to coordinate and sponsor conventions. The future of the GB, if there will even be a body so named, will be to be responsible for the above.
(3) The vast majority of Memorial partakers are not credible in the eyes of the Governing Body, nor do they have any authority over anything.
I actually don't quite understand the first portion AuldSoul. It seems like you are saying that the GB doubt the sincerity or don't believe that current memorial partakers are part of the heavenly class. I have never seen any info or evidence of that. While a few may be questioned or challenged, most are accepted as anointed - at least to their own claim.
As for the latter portion, this is of course true but rather than being an obstacle to reform it serves to further undermine the false FDS doctrine. The fact that the anointed as a body do not have any real power or involvement with "feeding the household" spiritual food is one which is dawning more and more upon Jehovah's Witnesses.
After the Revolution, those having a Heavenly Hope will be much more numerous and many Jehovah's Witnesses will have the hope to live in the Earthly Paradise. But all will become partakers in the Eucharist.
The WTBTS will do its thing as the Publishing Corporation that it is and JWs will do their thing as independent and loosely associated local congregations of believers. The local leaders, Elders and MSs (deacons and deaconesses), will be locally elected.
(4) The organization shows a willingness to publicly claim beliefs to which Jehovah's Witnesses do not actually subscribe in order to improve public image (see Lisa's interview with J.R. Brown), while retaining the same hard-line beliefs in reality.
One of the factors impelling the Revolution is the greater access to information and greater transparency and consistency. As more JWs and outsiders learn about these discrepancies they will see the need to change. The point you raise above will produce consequences that motivate reform, it is not a barrier to it.
(5) The Governing Body is unwilling to relinquish control over the organization, to share authority with underlings (e.g. eradication of Bethel elders), or to cease its pretense of Spirit direction.
True, true and true. Also irrelevant in a state where the GB is meaningless due to the evaporation of the FDS doctrine. What your objection presupposes is that the only possible direction of change is that which is initiated by the Governing Body or some other persons with authority in the present hierarchy of the Organization. But when the paradigm shifts from the 20th Century Publishing Corporation model to the 21st Century's organic form of Intn'l Bible Students, these issues of control and authority will be rendered moot.
(6) The members of the Governing Body are appointees of the Governing Body, the current Governing Body is directly descended from Corporate executives, not from any kind of spiritual body of believers.
The pressures for reform are not all going to be from the top of the present hierarchy. There will be other internal pressures and external pressures.
(7) The lack of donations will not change doctrine. It is an End Times cult. It expects (and teaches) that eventually the love of the greater number will cool off before the end, also that the work of publishing "Good News" will cease. Such occurences will be a source of inspiration to continue in the same course, not a signal for change.
"Vote with our feet" and "vote with our wallets" only works with organizations that anticipate a lengthy future for themselves. There will be no significant shift toward mainstream reform for this organization, it expects that its seeming demise is imminent and looks forward to that tmie with a sense of gleeful anticipation.
Those who hoped for blood reform, what has happened? Currently, any JW may take a blood transfusion without any fear of being disfellowshipped. If it is discovered, however, it will be viewed as though they disassociated themselves. Identical announcement, same practical effect, only a different check mark on the card in the congregation files. Is that reform?True the lack of donations will not change doctrine. And the reality is that the Society has enough financial reserves, capital and assets to weather any drought brought on by even a sustained boycott. Of course in the future it won't need as much either.
By "voting with our feet" I assume you mean an exodus of current Witnesses walking away from the Organization all together. The fact is that whenever there have been large exoduses in the past the Org has underwent significant reform. Furthermore, there is currently an exodus going on and which has been going on. It produces an effect. This effect is correlated to the size of the exodus. If major reforms are not initiated in the future, there will be an even greater exodus and the effect will become obvious.
As for a shift to the mainstream that is not the future of Jehovah's Witnesses, though in some sense a few doctrines may become closer to what is considered orthodox or mainstream Christianity. Jehovah's Witnesses are and will remain an Adventist faith. The major non-mainstream beliefs regarding the Trinity, Christ, Hell/Heaven, Immortal Soul, Resurrection, etc which sets it apart from some of the other Adventist cousins will be retained.
Real reform is more than just adaptation and it is more than just change. Ideally reform produces beneficial results for all parties. But that is not an absolute qualification. Reform can be change that is significant enough to effect cultural identity and individual purpose.
One thing that should not be forgotten is that reform has been a part of Jehovah's Witness history. In fact there have been several major reforms already.
The second thing to consider is that the theology of JW presupposes that change is not only inevitable it should be welcomed. Jehovah's Witnesses see their Organization as God's Celestial Chariot which is on the move. This means that it does move and thus does change. So when change happens, JWs change also. Thus JWs are not only ready for reform they are in expectation of it.
And now, Auld Soul, here are the reasons why the Revolution will occur....
The Revolution
The aim of the Revolution is the wholesale transformation of today's Jehovah's Witnesses into the largest semi-organized body of International Bible Students in the world. The Revolution is made possible by the recent convergence of five factors which have led to Jehovah's Witnesses reaching this remarkable and important point in their history.
Factor #1: The Internet/WWW - Two Prongs of Information and Association
Prong One: Access to Information
The access to and the exchange in information, ideas and viewpoint created by the Internet is not only an unprecedented phenomenon in world history, it has monumental implications for the future of the Organization and religion of Jehovah's Witnesses.
In the past, it was practically impossible, and dangerous, for any of Jehovah's Witnesses to access old and out-of-print Watchtower publications, to review counter-information, or to read about the facts and the experiences that others have presented.
All of that changed during the last decade of the 20th Century when the Internet and World Wide Web dramatically came into vogue. The very existence of this website and your reading of these words right now is testimony to the power of the Internet. If you have gotten this far, there is nothing more that I need to say about this point because you probably already know.Prong Two: The Freedom of Association
The advent of the Internet/WWW has made another thing possible which was frankly unthinkable before -- the association with other Jehovah's Witnesses who share your doubts, the association with ex-Witnesses who have something to say, and the association with non-Witnesses who also want to contribute.
Such association and freedom of communication, without fear and censorship, was not possible before. Before the advent of the Internet, if a Witness raised questions or shared their doubts, and many past reformers attempted to do just that, they were quickly escorted to the door. And once outside the door, few if any on the inside could hear them, even if they wanted to.
Free association makes possible another previous impossibility -- planning. Now persons interested in change may make plans, they may coordinate efforts, they may share ideas, share strategy, inform each other about what has worked and what doesn't and in short engage in what is necessary to further the Revolution.
Factor #2: Higher Education - The Birthplace of the Questioning Mind Maybe it was unavoidable? Maybe it was an early step by those inside the Organization that desire change? Whatever the reasons, in 1992 the Society opened the floodgates to higher education and in doing so it exposed the Organization to the second catalytic influence leading to the Revolution.
There is a reason why so many protests, so many revolutions in world history, began on college campuses or were lead by student leaders. If the Society were dedicated to preserving the status quo it would have never forgotten this lesson.
The freedom to explore higher education has lead to a new generation of sophisticated and critical-thinking Witnesses. Many of these younger ones who are born into the religion are either living double-lives or rejecting their religious heritage outright. Even new attempts by the Society to temper the allure of higher education will not prevail or stem this tide. Older Witnesses, who listened to the Society's suggestions and directives regarding higher education are now returning to the classroom and realizing how much they erred in foregoing their higher education. This resentment, very justifiable in most cases, has opened the way to allow them to question other things which they formerly held as unquestionable.
It is a certainty that the future of the Organization lies within the hands and work of today's youth. Among the future leaders of the Revolution there will be many who have obtained a higher education and learned and accepted the values of scholarship, plurality of thought, and the principles of diversity.
Factor #3: The Leadership Void
The year 1992, marked another major milestone in the history of Jehovah's Witnesses when Frederick Franz , the Third President of the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, died. Even before that, with the rise of the Governing Body to power during the end of President Nathan H. Knorr's era in the 1970s, the presidency of the Society had become more and more only a token position. But with Franz's death, the real downfall of the power of the presidency was set in motion and findly came into full fruition with the massive legal reorganization of the old corporations and creation of several new corporate entities used by Jehovah's Witnesses today.
More important than the downfall of the presidency however, has been the lack of any real leadership on the part of the Governing Body. That body while occassionally dominated by one or two, now and then, has failed to produce a true visionary -- someone both capable and willing to lead Jehovah's Witnesses into the future. Simply put, the Organization in its present form faces a crisis of leadership.
And now the time has passed for a single new leader to emerge since the rise of such a charismatic leader would likely be rejected in our modern times. Thus for the time being, we are left with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses to be responsible for the initiative of change.
Unfortunately, the Governing Body , already quite distanced from the realities of contemporary life and the rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses, are contemplating their own eminent demise -- or denying it. And this body and its replacements or assistants are slowly losing grip on the hearts and soul of the average Witness.
These facts are being felt by Witnesses everywhere. They are evident in the seemingling endless regurgitation of the same material and information, teachings and beliefs, in the pages of the Society's publications and The Watchtower. The meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses are tedious and boring for these very reasons. There is simply nothing new, because there is no one in authority doing any new thinking.
Should we look to the Governing Body to lead the Organization out of this morass?
The fact is that by its own terms, the FDS has crossed the point of irrationality and is now ebbing toward farce as there will be no one left of a sizable number claiming to be of the anointed at all still living, much less a "Governing Body" within fifteen or perhaps twenty years from now. This 8000 plus corp are now in average age in excess of 80 years old and cannot be expected as a significant number to remain longer than that. This Last Biological Clock is ticking and winding down quickly.
Therefore, it is because of this leadership void, that the initiative for change must be seized by others. Change must be embraced by every Witness, no matter what station or position they may hold within the organization. It is on the initiative of those within the Worldwide Association of Jehovah's Witnesses, some perhaps, engaging in both passive resistance and active protest , and some who have joined the Prometheans and others simply doing their own small part, that will push the Revolution forward.
Factor #4: The Doctrinal Void If you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses, stop and think about it for a moment. What DATE are you looking forward to?
For the first time in the entire history of the modern-day Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, there is no date held out to the faithful for the expectation of Armageddon. Even after the 1975 Fiasco , when the Society began to wisely avoid specific date setting, there was still the insistence of the Generation Doctrine , and the occassional attempt at urgency for the "Armageddon is just around the corner" type statement.
But since 1995, when the Society finally abandoned the Generation Doctrine, and with the exception of the Last Biological Clock teaching, there has been no date-setting and no theological or doctrinal understanding which leads Jehovah's Witnesses to believe in the near-term arrival of Armageddon.
At most, all the Society can do and individuals who are folly enough can do, is to point to various problems and crises in the world and claim that these are signs of the times that prove we are living in the Last Days.
This old script is growing more and more ineffective, especially upon younger Witnesses, who, like generations before them, see each crisis come and go or each new challenge met and surpassed.
This combined with the insistence on old doctrines which among other things teach that the whole world's religious community is going to be turned upon by the political powers, or that the spreading of the Good News is being completed, has only led to more and more Witnesses wondering and questioning just where do they stand in the stream of time.
The resulting psychic ambiguity is wreaking havoc upon the rank and file. Increasingly desensitized to nonspecific warnings about the coming destruction or statements that "soon the end must come," many Witnesses are cooling off in their enthusiasm for the ministry and peddling of the literature.
This spiritual vacuum is being filled with many other things. For some it is being filled with materialism and worldly concerns. For others, it is being filled with false teachings and ungodly wisdom. And for still many others it is allowing them to expand their minds and to allow the truth about the Truth to be explored and to question, to challenge, and eventually, to want to change the status quo.
Factor #5: External Pressures Pressures from outside of the Organization to change or reform have always been present. And they have always been among the weakest influence to change for a number of reasons, most notably, because such outside pressures, viewed as "persecution from Satan" only served to reinforce the Witness mindset and theology.
However, because of the previous four factors, and because of changes within our larger cultural society which have eroded the barriers of insular religious institutions and made possible the successful invasion into ecclesiastical authority, it seems evident that the factor of external pressure may be more powerfully felt by the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses than ever before.
These external pressures will likely come in the realms of: the Internet, the media, the academic arena, the social perspective, religious opponents and the courtroom.
The Internet/WWW will continue to play a crucial role in exposing fault and falsehood of the Organization and in helping to mobilize the external forces.
The media has already contributed to the external pressure in several ways and this area is likely to grow as both Jehovah's Witnesses become more and more interesting to the mainstream and as opponents learn to better utilize such resources.
The academic world, always eager to investigate undeveloped fields, are finding that Jehovah's Witnesses are remarkably understudied and underevaluated and more and more studies will appear in academia -- the results of which will be influential.
Society at large, especially in areas and lands where Jehovah's Witnesses are relatively "new," are pressuring their governments and authorities to examine closely these new invaders.
Religions and religious leaders, have always been opponents of Jehovah's Witnesses, however, many are becoming much more effective in their counter-ministries. Some are adopting similar techniques as Jehovah's Witnesses to wrestle away potential converts and others are making use of both the Internet and published information.
In the legal realm, the Organization faces numerous battles. Of course, this is nothing new. In the area of civil rights, it is unlikely to lose any significant ground in Western lands; however, the courts of these lands and elsewhere are more and more inclined to remove the veil of ecclesiastical privilege in several areas including child welfare, sexual abuse, privacy and labor regulations. Additionally, although they present "legal long-shots," the spectre of being responsible in tort law for its actions and for its statements (including possibly such religious doctrines as the Blood Doctrine) looms threatening over the Society's future.
------------Witness the Revolution
Eduardo
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JW Reform, It will NEVER happen...
by AuldSoul ini have read several posts by posters who fervently hope jws will become a mainstream religion, or will become "the truth," or will stop teaching this doctrine, or tweak that one, and "oh, if they would only [fill in the blank].".
such dreaming will, in the end, come to naught.
there are practical reasons why.. (1) the rank and file have no authority over the governing body.. (2) the rank and file do not hold sway over any of the corporate interests.. (3) the vast majority of memorial partakers are not credible in the eyes of the governing body, nor do they have any authority over anything.. (4) the organization shows a willingness to publicly claim beliefs to which jehovah's witnesses do not actually subscribe in order to improve public image (see lisa's interview with j.r. brown), while retaining the same hard-line beliefs in reality.. (5) the governing body is unwilling to relinquish control over the organization, to share authority with underlings (e.g.
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Do 'Cult Deprogramers' Work?
by Outaservice inthere have been individuals who hire so called 'cult deprogramers' to get a loved one out of a cult.
they sometimes kidnap them and try to get them out of whatever cult they might be in.
does this ever work, and would it have worked on you as a jw?.
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Oroborus21
It has worked and could work. But depending on how it is done it could be illegal. Secondly, it might not work and may not work on most persons.
Hassan's newer method takes a more holistic approach to the problem and he reports good success with it.
its best to seek alternatives to 1970s-style deprogramming.
-Eduardo
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Racism in the watchtower - Help me stop these lies!
by LeahJasmine ina lunatic on another website is spreading lies about the jehovah witnesses.
he's published an article that i am fighting.
you can read it here: racism in the jehovah witness watchtower: members of the cult must abandon their community for the watchtower community.. please help me.
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Oroborus21
Greetings,
The problem is that the author sets forth the premise that Jehovah's Witnesses (organization) is a rascist organization today. His premise is poorly supported. Not only are the quotes he provided not reflective of today's organization or attitude, they themselves are not evidence of systemic racism or evidence of the general or specific attitudes towards race of the individual Jehovah's Witness. As we all know, the publications are created by a select few and the vast majority of Witnesses have no input into what is written. So it is pure folloy to make a general attibution based upon such sparse quotations.
As for the integration issues the author mentions occurring in the 70s in some areas, even if true, this is not only reflective of society at large it also ignores the fact that in other areas integration occurred rapidly, even earlier than in some areas or in other churches. Also it ignores the fact that the Society has long reached out with missionaries etc. to African countries, etc.
Today, Jehovah's Witnesses have a high percentage of inter-racial couples among them -- a sure indication that racism is not a cultural trait. Additionally, Jehovah's Witnesses are among the world's largest international religions.
These things show conclusively that the whole claim that today's Jehovah's Witnesses are racist is completely bogus.
As for the author's other points, there is some validity in the issue of cultural assimilation, but this is not racist itself and doesn't support his claims of racism. The other points are wildly irrelevant to the racism claim.
Bottom line is the guy is full of crap and sadly those who don't really know the culture of Jehovah's Witnesses may be misled about the facts.
-Eduardo
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New Biography of Pastor Russell
by RR innew biography of pastor russell.
ninety years ago the founder of the bible students, pastor charles taze russell, died.
the organization he established became fragmented and subject to strong personalities who felt they knew how to best continue his legacy.
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Oroborus21
Jim Whitney, Is that (one of) the books that Barbara is working on? I would be interested in her progress.
Nicolau: Not exactly an accurate statement to say that "so few follow Russell's teachings." If we include both JWs and Bible Students together as following (at least in part) Russell's teachings (or at least his particular synthesized theology since many of his teachings originated elsewhere) then you have at 6 million plus (JWs) and (since they don't keep membership records) probably at least 1 million plus Bible Students (and that's just currently living faithful). That's not small potatoes but in fact stands as a respectable segment of Christianity.
http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/adventism.html
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html
-Eduardo