Posts by Oroborus21

24

Predictions for 2007

by free2beme in

jw
friends

i will search deep in to my mind, and predict ten things for 2007. .

politics.

1. john kerry will announce that he will not run for president.. 2. bill clinton will reveal he has terminal cancer.. environment.

Oroborus21

hopefully it won't suck as bad as 2006 but it probably will. (so says George Carlin)

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

thanks CC. the Guide for Counsel that I am working on, will, I hope, better prepare attorneys who are unfamiliar with JWs, to counter some of those false statements that are sometimes made by JWs or their children as well as explore topics which might arise as they relate to JWs.

I am hoping to keep it even-handed but it will address the JW beliefs and culture confrontationally when those issues address the best interests of children. Duane Magnani says that "all things being equal, it is best for the children to be awarded into the custody of the non-JW parent" but I don't believe a blanket position like that is what is right. The court and the professionals whose job it is to make such determinations are the ones who should make these decisions and I believe they should be given all of the information necessary, that witnesses should be examined thoroughly, and that testimony should be presented which allows them to make these difficult decisions as best as they can.

I know first-hand that there are never truly any winners in family law and especially in divorce and custody cases. The children often "lose" in some respect and it is heart-breaking.

39

Interesting visit from broken down JW and CO

by hambeak in

jw
friends

yesterday pm while on gabbly two jw's came into my shop (former customers) with an overheating problem.. they saw my other copy of coc.

i asked what can we do for you?

they both were staring at the book, i noticed the car was spewing steam and coolant.

Oroborus21

I'm surprised more JWs don't get beaten up regularly.
W

Riiight! Cause that is an appropriate reaction in our enlightened times whenever we encounter those with whom we disagree or whom we perceive to be spreading harm and lies.

-Eduardo

14

Henschel with Castro

by Abandoned in

does anyone remember which issue of the watchtower or awake had the pictures with henschel and company posing with fidel castro?

Oroborus21

Not to be an apologist here....

BUT

while the photo LOOKS bad and the idea of "idolatry" certainly comes to mind...the fact is that a lot of people "sign" WT literature that is meant as a gift. This is not "autographing" in the sense of celebrity.

My favourite Songbook was a gift from a friend in Florida and she signed it with a nice message. And this is pretty common thing to do among not just JWs but among all Christians when they give a gift bible or whatever.

I beieve it is safe to assume that what the GB members were doing were writing their little notes and "pearls of wisdom" (Gag) so as to personalize the books. These guys know the difference between doing that and signing them like they were rock stars.

So I don't think what they were doing is itself wrong or inappropriate, it is just that they could have used a little PR advisor or someone on the editorial staff to not publish the picture which looks bad and which doesn't convey what they were probably actually doing well enough.

11

INSIGHT ON THE SCRIPTURES

by lighthouse19something in

i realize the publication is biased toward the jw doctrines, but is it accurate on the noncontroversial topics.

i spent good $ on it when it came out, and i wondered if anyone had opinions.

Oroborus21

Actually, much of it, if not the majority of it, is still the exact same information and wording as the Aid publication as you can see by laying the two publications side by side.

As you may know, as Ray Franz relates in CofC, when he and the team (that included good people like Ed Dunlap) put the Aid book togetherm they were given a "free hand" to develop the information and I think that on all of the non-doctrinal subjects they did a pretty decent job. Thus, in my opinion it is a good encyclopedia on those topics.

As you point out, on subjects which touch upon doctrinal aspects, you will have to evaluate those more carefully to determine whether what is said is true or accurate.

-Eduardo

19

WT LIES in the bible teach book

by Zico in

we all know the watchtower soicety can be deceitful at times.

one place i've noticed their deceit is in their main 'bible' study/cult introduction book 'what does the bible really teach?

designed for a jw holding a bible study with an interested person, this books tries to convince the person being studied with, that this religion knows the truth about the bible.

Oroborus21

Page 183, Ch. 18 para 24 'Remember, too, that you have made a dedication to Jehovah God himself, not to a work, a cause, other humans, or an organization'

LIES. What is that second baptism question that they so conveniently left out? "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses IN ASSOCIATION WITH GOD'S SPIRIT DIRECTED ORGANISATION?" It's clear, a Jehovah's Witness baptism doesn't just mean a dedication to Jehovah, it also means you register yourself as a member of an organisation, and as we all know, having doubt that this Organisation teaches the Truth is like doubting Jehovah himself in the mind of a JW. (I could even argue that they do dedicate themselves to a work, a cause and other humans, but I won't)

What you say i your "analysis" is correct. I would only point out that the statement itself that you cite from page 183 is NOT a "lie." There is a difference between "dedication" (in the sense meant by baptism itself and the first baptismal question) and the acknowledgment that the person is identifying themselves as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in associaiton with blah, blah, blah"

JWs dedicate their lives to God (they believe) and no one else, not even the Organization. To the Organization, they only enter into a kind of Voluntary Servitude (which is of course wrong) and that is not the same as "dedication" in the sense meant by the Society in the statement.

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

There is no way you can reconcile this statement:
Be careful they don't all say that they are going to be pioneers. Plans can be trade, getting married and having children, journalism, and all kinds of other things.
with the "council" and "suggestions" that the Watchtower has repeatedly printed over the years warning of the "dangers" of pursuing higher education, of wanting to have any kind of career other than pioneering. They have even been known to suggest that young couples seriously consider not having children, because of "where we are in the stream of time."

No Apologies,

it is absolutely reconcilable. As I state in my previous post (to Atypical), NOT ALL JWS are going to be or even have the desire to be Pioneers. Thus the statement is fine, IF the child in question, which is very likely, is one of those who is not striving to become a pioneer. Of course, if the person is striving to become a pioneer then in those few cases, the child should of course discuss their goal of pioneering, which by the way, would likely include some sort of self-support by vocational training or part-time employment. There are many WT excerpts which follow along those lines that Pioneers should be able to support themselves with part-time work or with some vocational trade.

Secondly, what we have here is a situation where a statement is made in a communication which is general in nature but which is applicable to only a minority. Thus the WT statements are always going to focus on the highest goal or ideal circumstances and thus, yes, statements are made to reach out for pioneering. But these statements which are read or heard by all JWs are obviously only applicable to those few whose circumstances and whose desire allow for them to pursue pioneering or other full-time service. This really is obvious.

Similarly, the statement in the Child Custody brochure is one which is general to all JWs (facing child custody disputes) but which would not be applicable to the few children who are pioneering or who are striving to become pioneers. (Although, again it is clear that the situation for pioneer children would be to present a "balanced" picture of both their occupation with pioneering and whatever vocation they may have which allows them to pioneer.)

Again, I would challenge anyone to produce any excerpts from the Child Custody Brochure which clearly shows that the Society is advocating deception or dishonesty. That is a common claim made by anti-JW/opposers and some persons like Duane have written whole books making that claim, but it doesn't make it so.

this post and the excerpt provided is typical of the bias that is revealed by those misreading what is clearly advice to counsel to present balanced and fair information to the courts, experts or fact-finders.

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

Atypical,

read the citation (quotation) more closely. It does not say what you say it does, that is as you say "that the child are not to show that meeting etc. are first priority." The information very clearly states that the child should understand that the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings, etc. would be of primary importance.

No one is denying that meetings or one's faith is of "primary" importance and that is not the directive of the information. Again, the child (nor their parent, nor counsel) is not being told to be dishonest about the importance of their faith or of meetings, but only to present a full and complete picture of what their life is like. yes they will discuss their 5 meetings a week, etc. but they will also discuss their love of music, their hobbies, their other interests, their fav tv shows ,etc.

The goal of presenting an accurate account of how JWs spend their time is not intended to mislead the fact-finder or evaluator but rather to counter any preconceived bias or misconceptions that they may have about JWs.

Also, even though the "ideal" and encouraged state involves a significant amount of time and focus for JWs, the fact is that few JWs ACTUALLY do all that is "encouraged."

Regarding the issue of "pioneering" as a goal, in the literature or from the platform, that "goal" is tossed out as an encouragement to all, YET it is clearly understood that not all persons can do it or should do it. That is why it is always stated as a matter of whether a person can make it possible to do it. Additionally, the fact that one must qualify and be approved to be a pioneer also implies that not all JWs would have pioneering as a realistic goal. The vast majority of Witnesses have other goals and desires in life pursuits, trades and how they will make a living, and since 1995 have the "socially blessed" goal of higher education. Pioneering (or other full-time service like Bethel) has always been considered a special privilege and possibiliity for only a relative few. Thus it is NOT deceitful for a child to tell the court about their goals if in fact they do have such desires or goals.

-Eduardo

PS: No, it is not that I like to fight or start fires. I believe in balance and this is just one of those instances where I see somethng posted that is not only in error but conveys a very unbalanced and inaccurate viewpoint. I have read and considered the Child Custody pamphlet quite in depth and contrary to claims by persons such as Duane Magnani and others, it is not a manual for lying or "theocratic strategy" though it is obviously an not unexpectedly biased and imbalanced. I also don't think it particularly good at helping counsel who are unfamiliar with JWs either as clients or in opposition prepare for hearings or trial. Thus, I am working on my own guide for counsel in this area.

290

JW Children Lie in Custody Cases

by compound complex in

direct and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.

wtb&ts, page 42.

"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.

Oroborus21

Honesty,

I understand your unrelenting bias but to be really "honest" you have to admit that there is a difference between advocating that something should be "most" important to one's life and advocating that nothing else is important at all. True, Witnesses believe their faith should be most important, but it is also true that Witnesses are encouraged to be well-rounded and that their lives are spent in a variety of activities, many of them not having anything to do with theocratic activities or Witnesses' faith.

All that the counsel in the brochure is stating is that some Witness youths might have the idea that their faith is on trial or might think it is a situation to highlight their theocratic activity, the way they would do in a part at a convention. (As we know, those parts are meant to focus on a person's theocratic activity but one has to be naive to assume that such persons don't have other interests or don't spend some of their time in recreation or whatever.)

This reminder in the Child Custody brochure is only that, a reminder, to let them know that they should discuss all of their interests and activity, so that a court, the judge, can get a more accurate picture of their daily life. They are not being asked to make up anything or create a false identity. They can represent their life accurately, that is dedicated to being a Christian, but otherwise they are more or less normal in that they have other interests and they spend their time in a variety of activities.

-Eduardo

21

Need Help With Mexico/ Malawi!!

by Anitar in

huge news everyone!

i recently had a breakthrough with my mom.

we were debating last night for several hours, during which time brought up the mexico/malawi situation, which she of course being a faithful and blind witness, knew nothing about.

Oroborus21

Howdy Anitar,

You can find a summary here: http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.info/sscc27.html

As you recall the fundamental issue is one of "Christian Neutrality." JWs believe or rather believed that a true Christian should not involve themselves with or compromise their neutrality when it comes to matters of politics and also the military. Malawi dealt with political cards and Mexico dealt with papers (the Cartilla) that verified military training. In Malawi, the Witnesses were (instructed) not to buy the cards and in Mexico the Witnesses were (instructed) that they could obtain the cards, usually through bribery.

(This was of course pre-revision of the alternative military service and compulsory civil service viewpoints (doctrine) and pre-revision of the "compulsory voting" viewpoint (doctrine) which probably would change things today.)

"Proving" this to your mom is going to be somewhat difficult. The treatment and situation of the Malawi Witnesses is easy to show from publication excerpts and from Yearbook accounts, so that side of the "scales" is easy enough to prove to your mother.

The difficulty comes in showing how the Witnesses in Mexico were treated in a completely different way and how they were permitted to obtain their cards, perhaps through participation in the (reserves) military training and more often through routine payment (bribery) of government officials.

To my knowledge, no OFFICIAL WT publications have ever even discussed the compulsory reserves military training, much less discussed how JWs either view it or what they do about it. Thus if the ONLY INFO your mom is willing to consider is Official WT literature you may be out of luck.

It is possible to prove the issue to her, if you or her KNOW any Mexican Witnesses who faced the issue and who know of the situation and who will candidly tell your mother about it. That first-hand testimony may be the only way to convince your mother.

You could also possibly TRY writing the Society and asking them NAIVELY about what their directives were to the Mexican brothers at the time and see if you get any contemporary letters that will admit what the policies were, but that is extremely unlikely to produce the evidence.

Otherwise, your mom will have to rely upon the veracity of the copies of the documents that are extent, including what was republished by Ray in CofC, that show what the official position and directives were to the Mexican Witnesses. All these copies though are going to only be available on websites or from sources she would view as questionable.

-Eduardo

PS: while you are on the subject, you might find it good to bring up what I call the "Mexican Question" which basically discusses the perplexing reason why the Witnesses were organized as a cultural association instead of as an official religion for most of the 20th Century. There are a lot of "official" citations that you can provide to show her about that topic.